Biggest gap between the best horse in a crop and the rest

[Kasept]

Point Given.. Swale..(?) Slew.. Native Dancer.. War Admiral..

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Point Given.. Swale..(?) Slew.. Native Dancer.. War Admiral..

point given at least had congaree in his crop. on both of their best days, up to 9f, i'd take congaree.


native dancer and war admiral were considerably more than 30 years ago.

swale's crop had precisionist, gate dancer, greinton, al mamoon, etc.
i'm not sure swale was even the best horse in the crop, though maybe at the time of the triple crown he was!


i'll give you slew, that one is pretty obvious, but cutting it close for the 30 year mark.

[blackthroatedwind]

Bellamy Road.

[philcski]

Smarty Jones was so much better than everyone in that crop it was ridiculous.

The fact that he didn't win the Triple Crown proves how difficult it really is...

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by philcski

Smarty Jones was so much better than everyone in that crop it was ridiculous.

The fact that he didn't win the Triple Crown proves how difficult it really is...

I agree. I think it was Watchmaker who said, the true testament to Smarty Jones' talent (not going to use the "G" word) was the fact that he could carry Stewart Elliot to wins in the Derby and Preakness.

Originally Posted by philcski

Smarty Jones was so much better than everyone in that crop it was ridiculous.

The fact that he didn't win the Triple Crown proves how difficult it really is...

I so thoroughly agree. I was so skeptical about this guy. Damn I miss this horse. I hope all his progeny fail miserably. I wanted so badly to see him run again. Same with Bernardini. We all missed out on seeing some great athletic talent when these went to the shed. So I gotta hope all the offspring are horrible.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Point Given.. Swale..(?) Slew.. Native Dancer.. War Admiral..

Swale?

He had Dr. Carter, Devil's Bag, Slew o' Gold and even Time for a Change.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Swale?

He had Dr. Carter, Devil's Bag, Slew o' Gold and even Time for a Change.

I liked Swale.. Was just becoming a race fan at the time.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I liked Swale.. Was just becoming a race fan at the time.

He was a nice horse....and at best about fourth or fifth best of his crop. Hell, as a 2YO Shuttle Jet used to give him all he could handle.

Did you ever read the chart of his Belmont win? I believe it said something like " closed off his own fractions ".

[King Glorious]

My nominees would be (from 1986 to present):
Arazi (1992) over AP Indy
Holy Bull (1994) over Tabasco Cat
Thunder Gulch (1995) over Serena's Song
Point Given (2001) over ????

My rankings:
1. Point Given
2. Arazi
3. Thunder Gulch
4. Holy Bull

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My nominees would be (from 1986 to present):
Arazi (1992) over AP Indy
Holy Bull (1994) over Tabasco Cat
Thunder Gulch (1995) over Serena's Song
Point Given (2001) over ????

My rankings:
1. Point Given
2. Arazi
3. Thunder Gulch
4. Holy Bull

wow. i love arazi too, but there was no way he was tons better than ap indy, if at all.

point given had congaree.

i'm not sold on thunder gulch even being best in his crop. and the holy bull crop was quite nice

[blackthroatedwind]

Thunder Gulch won a war of attrition. He was not that good.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Thunder Gulch won a war of attrition. He was not that good.

That may be true or it may not be. But I don't think there is any question that he was by far the dominant 3yo that year. Go through the history books and tell me how many can have wins in the Florida Derby, Fountain of Youth, Travers, Swaps, Kentucky Derby and Preakness. It's a special horse in my book that travel the country and win that many of the best races in his division. U may call it a war of attrition. Who else was as good as he was that year? Timber Country was talented but he was also losing the San Rafael and San Felipe. Afternoon Deelites was a nice horse too. None had the record of Thunder Gulch or the sustained consistency from the start of the year till the end. Well, at least till September.

[Danzig]

sunday silence--any horse that can beat easy goer, three times, has to be clearly the best of his generation!

but really, i think it's the bid as well--that was a good crop, but he was so much the best.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

wow. i love arazi too, but there was no way he was tons better than ap indy, if at all.

point given had congaree.

i'm not sold on thunder gulch even being best in his crop. and the holy bull crop was quite nice

I always felt that AP Indy was better but not much better than Bertrando. And I know how much better than Bertrando Arazi was.

I loved Congaree as a horse but I didn't think he showed his best until later. Point Given kicked his ass in the Preakness and then that was Congaree later getting handled again in the Jim Dandy.

[Pedigree Ann]

[quote=King Glorious]I always felt that AP Indy was better but not much better than Bertrando. And I know how much better than Bertrando Arazi was.QUOTE]

ONLY at 2! Arazi was far more mature at 2 than any of the US 2yos, which is why he could handle them so easily at Churchill. But he didn't grow from 2 to 3, he had in effect peaked at 2, and when it came to the classics, he was out of his depth. While A P Indy, Bertrando, et. al. continued to grow and mature and improve as the year went on.

[King Glorious]

[quote=Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I always felt that AP Indy was better but not much better than Bertrando. And I know how much better than Bertrando Arazi was.QUOTE]

ONLY at 2! Arazi was far more mature at 2 than any of the US 2yos, which is why he could handle them so easily at Churchill. But he didn't grow from 2 to 3, he had in effect peaked at 2, and when it came to the classics, he was out of his depth. While A P Indy, Bertrando, et. al. continued to grow and mature and improve as the year went on.

Can't agree. Everyone that I know that saw Arazi run in the Derby as a 3yo saw him do the same thing in that race that he did in the BC. He made the same move on the backstretch to come from last (or very close to it) to hit the front of the field. He was just undertrained because of his injuries and stupid planning. But he was still just as good.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My nominees would be (from 1986 to present):
Arazi (1992) over AP Indy
Holy Bull (1994) over Tabasco Cat
Thunder Gulch (1995) over Serena's Song
Point Given (2001) over ????

My rankings:
1. Point Given
2. Arazi
3. Thunder Gulch
4. Holy Bull

Arazi over AP Indy, Lure or Paradise Creek??

Thunder Gulch was a nice horse, but let's remember that Timber Country and Afternoon Deelites were also members of this crop, and Thunder Gulch was all out on more than one occasion to beat Suave Prospect. If he was THAT GOOD, I doubt he would have been 24-1 in the Derby.

I think I'd have to look at Spectacular Bid.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Arazi over AP Indy, Lure or Paradise Creek??

Thunder Gulch was a nice horse, but let's remember that Timber Country and Afternoon Deelites were also members of this crop, and Thunder Gulch was all out on more than one occasion to beat Suave Prospect. If he was THAT GOOD, I doubt he would have been 24-1 in the Derby.

I think I'd have to look at Spectacular Bid.

as great at bid was, at least that crop had the very nice horses flying paster, relaunch, coastal and general assembly.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Swale?

He had Dr. Carter, Devil's Bag, Slew o' Gold and even Time for a Change.

I just walked into this discussion, but wasn't Slew O' Gold born a year before Swale?