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  #1  
Old 07-01-2006, 08:02 PM
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somerfrost somerfrost is offline
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Originally Posted by Downthestretch55
On this 4th of July, let us not forget the librarians and the ALA, protectors of those that inquire. My heros. Keepers of our liberty.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0701-25.htm

Here's to them all, especially my favorite librarian...Rupert Giles!
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  #2  
Old 07-01-2006, 08:11 PM
Bold Brooklynite
 
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No complaints about librarians ...

... but the ALA management is a cesspool of commie-pinko-leftist-America-hating traitors.
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  #3  
Old 07-01-2006, 08:48 PM
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somerfrost somerfrost is offline
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Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite
No complaints about librarians ...

... but the ALA management is a cesspool of commie-pinko-leftist-America-hating traitors.
Last time I checked, America was a land for all Americans...if we allow Bush and his kind to use fear to strip away basic liberties, only the rich and powerful will have freedom...in the end, we have only those rights that we can defend!
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  #4  
Old 07-02-2006, 12:35 PM
Bold Brooklynite
 
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Originally Posted by somerfrost
Last time I checked, America was a land for all Americans...if we allow Bush and his kind to use fear to strip away basic liberties, only the rich and powerful will have freedom...in the end, we have only those rights that we can defend!
All Americans are rich and powerful ... because all Americans have equal economic opportunity and equal voting power ... one person = one vote.

And our rights are being defended ... and very well I might add ... against the vicious people who would gladly murder all of us ... including the members of this forum. We're all safe and free at our keyboards right now because of the efforts and dedication of our armed services and police forces.

Bush has been president for 5.5 years ... and not one American has had his or her basic liberties stripped away ... so your attempt at creating hysteria is meaningless.
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  #5  
Old 07-02-2006, 01:42 PM
Downthestretch55 Downthestretch55 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite
All Americans are rich and powerful ... because all Americans have equal economic opportunity and equal voting power ... one person = one vote.

And our rights are being defended ... and very well I might add ... against the vicious people who would gladly murder all of us ... including the members of this forum. We're all safe and free at our keyboards right now because of the efforts and dedication of our armed services and police forces.

Bush has been president for 5.5 years ... and not one American has had his or her basic liberties stripped away ... so your attempt at creating hysteria is meaningless.
BB,
Believe whatever you want to...you have that right.
However, if i can be reported for checking out books at my library as per the "Patriot Act"..I respectfully disagree.
Basic liberties have indeed been stripped away.
DTS
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  #6  
Old 07-02-2006, 09:26 PM
Bold Brooklynite
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Downthestretch55
BB,
Believe whatever you want to...you have that right.
However, if i can be reported for checking out books at my library as per the "Patriot Act"..I respectfully disagree.
Basic liberties have indeed been stripped away.
DTS
No one has ever been "reported" for checking out books at a library ... except of course for Robert Bork and Clarence Thomas by democrat senators ...

... so how do you conclude that "basic liberties have been stripped away" ... when your entire premise is a fantasy?
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  #7  
Old 07-02-2006, 05:07 PM
irishtrekker irishtrekker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite
All Americans are rich and powerful ... because all Americans have equal economic opportunity and equal voting power ... one person = one vote.

And our rights are being defended ... and very well I might add ... against the vicious people who would gladly murder all of us ... including the members of this forum. We're all safe and free at our keyboards right now because of the efforts and dedication of our armed services and police forces.

Bush has been president for 5.5 years ... and not one American has had his or her basic liberties stripped away ... so your attempt at creating hysteria is meaningless.
Equal economic opportunity my ass. Like Warren Buffett so eloquently noted (and I can't do it justice), a lot of "opportunity" is luck. None of us chooses who our families are or what economic situations we were born into. Rich kids start with a lot more financial support behind them than the rest of us, and if you really can't see the disparate starting points we all have (and how those affect our paths in life), then you must live in a wonderful imaginary American world.

Look. I'm not afraid of a bunch of terrorists. I am afraid of a bunch of terrified, short-sighted and well-intentioned American citizens handing over every liberty we have in the name of defending our country when someone engages in some clever rhetorical fear-mongering. That's letting the terrorists win. Muzzle the press, delegitimize and stifle dissent, alienate sympathetic allies, and you wind up with a place that may be "safe" but that is so much less than the great nation we're supposed to be. Not in my name, thanks.
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  #8  
Old 07-02-2006, 07:32 PM
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somerfrost somerfrost is offline
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Originally Posted by irishtrekker
Equal economic opportunity my ass. Like Warren Buffett so eloquently noted (and I can't do it justice), a lot of "opportunity" is luck. None of us chooses who our families are or what economic situations we were born into. Rich kids start with a lot more financial support behind them than the rest of us, and if you really can't see the disparate starting points we all have (and how those affect our paths in life), then you must live in a wonderful imaginary American world.

Look. I'm not afraid of a bunch of terrorists. I am afraid of a bunch of terrified, short-sighted and well-intentioned American citizens handing over every liberty we have in the name of defending our country when someone engages in some clever rhetorical fear-mongering. That's letting the terrorists win. Muzzle the press, delegitimize and stifle dissent, alienate sympathetic allies, and you wind up with a place that may be "safe" but that is so much less than the great nation we're supposed to be. Not in my name, thanks.
Very well said! I really get tired of this "some folks just want to be poor" crap...it's hard to win a foot race when you are born without legs!
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  #9  
Old 07-02-2006, 07:35 PM
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paisjpq paisjpq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishtrekker
Equal economic opportunity my ass. Like Warren Buffett so eloquently noted (and I can't do it justice), a lot of "opportunity" is luck. None of us chooses who our families are or what economic situations we were born into. Rich kids start with a lot more financial support behind them than the rest of us, and if you really can't see the disparate starting points we all have (and how those affect our paths in life), then you must live in a wonderful imaginary American world.

Look. I'm not afraid of a bunch of terrorists. I am afraid of a bunch of terrified, short-sighted and well-intentioned American citizens handing over every liberty we have in the name of defending our country when someone engages in some clever rhetorical fear-mongering. That's letting the terrorists win. Muzzle the press, delegitimize and stifle dissent, alienate sympathetic allies, and you wind up with a place that may be "safe" but that is so much less than the great nation we're supposed to be. Not in my name, thanks.
I like the way you think.
__________________
Seek respect, not attention.
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  #10  
Old 07-02-2006, 09:40 PM
Bold Brooklynite
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paisjpq
I like the way you think.
There was no thought involved in that sophomoric response.
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  #11  
Old 07-02-2006, 09:33 PM
Bold Brooklynite
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishtrekker
Equal economic opportunity my ass.
Equal opportunity ... not equal results.

Scores of millions of Americans who were once dirt poor ... for example, my family ... are now quite wealthy ... because they took advantage of the opportunities available to them in this wonderful country.

The "rich" whom you refer to ... also were once poor ... as virtually no one came to this country already wealthy.

America is the land of incredible opportunity ... and only losers and bums bemoan their fate here.
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  #12  
Old 07-03-2006, 06:41 PM
pgardn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite
Equal opportunity ... not equal results.

America is the land of incredible opportunity ...
The first part of course is totally bovine residue. The second point is why most of us live here.

Cmon Bold one. ON THE WHOLE there is very clearly most opportunity for white males in the US. You cannot tell me with any sort of sincerety, that if one wanted to have the greatest opportunity in the US, one would want to be a black female. Replace black female with white male and bingo, ON THE WHOLE, the greatest opportunity. You may point to exceptions like Oprah etc..., but on the average, no one in this country with any sense kids themselves about this country as it stands.

So tell me... you would rather have been born a latino female because this would, on average, give you the greatest opportunity in this country? If not, what ethnic group and sex would most likely lead to opportunity?

Caucasian and male. Any other response is dreamworld. Dont try and lie to yourself and make things look hunky-dory. I am damn glad I am Caucasian and male. I sincerely believe if I was black and female, my opportunties would not have been as great ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

This is what has lead to some of the very devisive equal opportunity rules that screw lots of Caucasian kids trying to get into college. BE real here.
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  #13  
Old 07-02-2006, 09:39 PM
Bold Brooklynite
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishtrekker
Equal economic opportunity my ass. Like Warren
Look. I'm not afraid of a bunch of terrorists.
You don't have to be ...

... because at this very moment ... as we sit in safety and comfort at our keyboards ... dedicated members of our armed forces and police forces are on the job protecting us from the savages who would murder us all.

Because you live in this cocoon of protection provided by your fellow Americans ... you're full of bravado ... but honestly ask yourself this ...

... how "unafraid" would you be if a dozen armed, hooded al Qaeda terrorists broke into your home right now ... and started slashing the throats of your loved ones?
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  #14  
Old 07-02-2006, 09:44 PM
Bold Brooklynite
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishtrekker
Muzzle the press, delegitimize and stifle dissent, alienate sympathetic allies, and you wind up with a place that may be "safe" but that is so much less than the great nation we're supposed to be. Not in my name, thanks.
None of these things have happened ... you can't cite a single example of any of them.

You're either deluded yourself ... or trying to convince others to be deluded.

Sorry ... that leftist propaganda tactic never has worked and never will work ... not in this brave and decent country.
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  #15  
Old 07-03-2006, 08:37 AM
irishtrekker irishtrekker is offline
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Evidence on alienating our allies (note that even Britain is having problems with us now, something I can definitely affirm from being here):

POLITICS:
U.S. Image Abroad Takes a New Turn South
Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON, Jun 13 (IPS) - Three years after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, the image of the United States in Europe and the Islamic world has resumed its post-war slide, according to the latest in a series of surveys of public opinion in 14 countries released here Tuesday by the Pew Global Attitudes Project (PGAP).

Support for Washington's "global war on terror" has also declined, according to the survey of nearly 17,000 people, and confidence in the leadership of President George W. Bush, is at its lowest ebb, as it is in the United States, as well.

And in 12 of the 14 foreign countries surveyed, strong pluralities of 44 percent (Russia and China) to majorities of up to 76 (France) percent said the Iraq war had made the world "more dangerous". The only exceptions were India and Nigeria where pluralities of 41 percent of respondents said the world had been made "safer".

In addition to those two countries, the survey, which was conducted in April and May this year, included four western countries -- Britain, France, Germany and Spain; five predominantly Islamic countries -- Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan, Jordan, and Turkey; Russia, Japan, and China, as well as the United States itself.

The survey, which covered a range of issues, including attitudes toward global warming, avian flu, Iran, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, was the fourth in an annual series carried out by Pew since 2002 -- just after the U.S.-led ouster of the Taliban in Afghanistan and just before the Iraq invasion.

Shortly after the invasion, the survey showed a stunning drop in favourable attitudes toward Bush and the United States, particularly among Washington's European allies and in the Islamic world.

In France, for example, the percentage of respondents with a favourable opinion of the U.S. fell from 63 percent in 2002 to 43 percent in 2003; in Indonesia, it fell from 61 percent to 15 percent; in Jordan, from 25 percent to just one percent.

In a few countries, the decline continued through early 2004. But in many others, Washington's image appeared to recover slightly by the middle of that year, and even more by the spring of 2005.

By then, for example, the percentage of Russians with a favourable opinion of the U.S. had grown from 36 percent immediately after the war to 52 percent; in Indonesia, it climbed back up to 38 percent; and in Jordan, to 21 percent.

The latest poll, however, shows a new deterioration in foreign attitudes towards the U.S. despite explicit efforts by the administration, especially Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, to emphasise multilateral diplomacy over unilateral action.

Declines were particularly pronounced in Spain where the percentage or respondents with a favourable view of the U.S. fell from 41 percent last year to 23 percent; in Russia, where it fell from 52 percent to 43 percent; in Indonesia, from 38 percent to 30 percent; in Jordan, from 21 percent to 15 percent; in Turkey, from 23 percent to 12 percent; and in India, from 71 percent to 56 percent -- an especially surprising finding given the recent breakthrough nuclear agreement between the two countries.

The only countries in which Washington's image appears to have continued its rebound were China (from 42 percent favourable last year to 47 percent) and Pakistan (from 23 percent to 27 percent), where the improvement was no doubt helped by Washington's high-profile rescue and relief operations after last year's earthquake in Kashmir.

The U.S. image in Indonesia had also improved markedly as a result of its relief efforts following the December 2004 tsunami, only to resume its decline, however, over the year that followed.

That the resumption of Washington's decline was due primarily to opposition to the Iraq war and the more-general "war on terror" was made clear not only by the large pluralities and majorities (in 10 of the 14 countries) who said the world had been rendered "more dangerous" by the U.S. invasion, but also by the belief in all but two countries -- Germany and Japan -- that the "American presence in Iraq" constituted a greater danger to world peace than the presumed nuclear ambitions of Iran or North Korea.

Even in Washington's closest ally, Britain, respondents rated the U.S. in Iraq as a greater danger than Iran by a 41-34 percent margin; among the predominantly Islamic countries, respondents rated Washington's presence in Iraq from three times (Jordan) to seven times (Pakistan) more dangerous than Iran.
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  #16  
Old 07-03-2006, 09:17 AM
Exceller Exceller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somerfrost
Last time I checked, America was a land for all Americans...if we allow Bush and his kind to use fear to strip away basic liberties, only the rich and powerful will have freedom...in the end, we have only those rights that we can defend!
I despise Bush, but liberties have actually been expanded under him. Stop being a self-centered american and look at the world picture. The real problem with Bush is he ruined our military. It isn't our job to go freeing people. Help people free themselves, yes. Do it for them, no. George Washington freed his country with the help of the French, but he did most of the work. This idiot Bush thinks it is our job to free countries. Moron, yes, but a guy who stripped away liberties, that is ridiculous liberal nonsense.
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  #17  
Old 07-03-2006, 09:32 AM
Bold Brooklynite
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exceller
I despise Bush, but liberties have actually been expanded under him. Stop being a self-centered american and look at the world picture. The real problem with Bush is he ruined our military. It isn't our job to go freeing people. Help people free themselves, yes. Do it for them, no. George Washington freed his country with the help of the French, but he did most of the work. This idiot Bush thinks it is our job to free countries. Moron, yes, but a guy who stripped away liberties, that is ridiculous liberal nonsense.
You're confusing strategies and objectives.

The objective ... the overriding goal and the duty of elected officials ... is to safeguard the lives and freedom of Americans.

One of the strategies being used to achieve that objective ... is to foster democratic systems in countries where such systems do not exist ... not simply because that would benefit the peoples of those countries ... although in fact it does ... but because experience over the past two centuries has shown that democratic countries are far less dangerous to us than dictatorial countries are.

Democracy in Iraq isn't an objective ... it's a strategy being used to achieve our objective ... which is safety and freedom for Americans.
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  #18  
Old 07-03-2006, 09:38 AM
Exceller Exceller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite
You're confusing strategies and objectives.

The objective ... the overriding goal and the duty of elected officials ... is to safeguard the lives and freedom of Americans.

One of the strategies being used to achieve that objective ... is to foster democratic systems in countries where such systems do not exist ... not simply because that would benefit the peoples of those countries ... although in fact it does ... but because experience over the past two centuries has shown that democratic countries are far less dangerous to us than dictatorial countries are.

Democracy in Iraq isn't an objective ... it's a strategy being used to achieve our objective ... which is safety and freedom for Americans.
Nonsense. The administration took the advice of shady politicians tied to the defense contractors, instead of listening to their military leaders. They lied, made up false information and weakened our military. Funny how just about all of the architects of the war never served a minute in any branch of the service.

The Real George W., George Washington, warned against getting involved with the affairs of other countries and this idiot that is now President, and his little neocons, planned this war out in the 1990's. The fact is the this administration is INCOMPETENT. That can't be argued.

Please don't tell me about strategies vs. objectives. Let me guess, you never served a day in any branch of the service, but you read a lot of books. LOL.
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  #19  
Old 07-03-2006, 09:55 AM
Bold Brooklynite
 
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Originally Posted by Exceller
Nonsense. The administration took the advice of shady politicians tied to the defense contractors, instead of listening to their military leaders. They lied, made up false information and weakened our military. Funny how just about all of the architects of the war never served a minute in any branch of the service.

The Real George W., George Washington, warned against getting involved with the affairs of other countries and this idiot that is now President, and his little neocons, planned this war out in the 1990's. The fact is the this administration is INCOMPETENT. That can't be argued.

Please don't tell me about strategies vs. objectives. Let me guess, you never served a day in any branch of the service, but you read a lot of books. LOL.
You're leaving out one small fact ...

.. in the late summer of 2001 our nation was attacked ... with 3,000 Americans murdered and billions of dollars in property destroyed. The enemy who attacked us have made themselves and their objectives well-known ... they want to murder us all and subject the world to their tyrannical rule.

I don't think this was the result of a plot by defense contractors in the 1990's ... when Bill Clinton was president.
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