Problems are brewing...

Originally Posted by Honu

How many has that happened to that u own ? I have had horse flip in the gate and bust my tree on the tail gate and the horse didnt die. Had horses make the gap and go over the rail and bust my tree and they didnt die.

Would you feel any better about the matter had the horse DID die?

[Honu]

Originally Posted by easy goer

Would you feel any better about the matter had the horse DID die?

No but that was your foundation for your statement .

Originally Posted by Honu

No but that was your foundation for your statement .

I never made the statement originallly, someone else did. I just find the logic here very hard to understand. You mentioned something about the owner's horse dying. You did or the other guy did, I guess the other guy did. What's the pt? Dead or alive someone has to pay expenses.

I understand your position and I realize you have an emotional stake involved here. Which is fine, I would just like to keep the thread on a more logical basis.

For example the pt. about paying for your tack, this actually works against the argument that jocks are employees. If they are paying for their own equipment this suggests they are indep. contractors.

There are several factors the IRS looks at in cases such as these, including do they get paid hourly and do they report to a certain location like an office? In the case of jocks, it seems to me that much of the time they maybe doing things that count as work for several employers at once...

For example, a jock diets to make weight, who is he workign for? Well everybody who he is riding for on that day.

Or he studies the condition of the track (something that applies for all his mounts), or goes to get equipment, or he drives to the track, all in the normal day. How do you divide that up among several employers? Seems to me he is basically at the track and working for a number of employers at the same time.

SOunds like an independent contractor.

Now there was another pt. about benefits and the guild and all that. I think it would be in their best interest if they were to be a certified bargaining unit like the NFL players association and then a lot of these issues could be negotiated out and they wouldnt have this ongoing argument about who should pay for what. They wouldnt have to argue about indep. contractor status if the bargaining unit and owners had agreed to it.

OF course owners being rich folks arent likely to bargain as a unit either. So there is a problem there.

You made a pt. about there is no doubt that the owners should pay for medical. Why are you so stuck on this position? It is really an emotional stand you are taking here, logically economically it could be paid for either way. It probably wouldnt change things no matter which way it is done, the jock income probably wouldnt change either way. So why the emotional attahcment to this issue?

[Honu]

Originally Posted by easy goer

I never made the statement originallly, someone else did. I just find the logic here very hard to understand. You mentioned something about the owner's horse dying. You did or the other guy did, I guess the other guy did. What's the pt? Dead or alive someone has to pay expenses.

I understand your position and I realize you have an emotional stake involved here. Which is fine, I would just like to keep the thread on a more logical basis.

For example the pt. about paying for your tack, this actually works against the argument that jocks are employees. If they are paying for their own equipment this suggests they are indep. contractors.

There are several factors the IRS looks at in cases such as these, including do they get paid hourly and do they report to a certain location like an office? In the case of jocks, it seems to me that much of the time they maybe doing things that count as work for several employers at once...

For example, a jock diets to make weight, who is he workign for? Well everybody who he is riding for on that day.

Or he studies the condition of the track (something that applies for all his mounts), or goes to get equipment, or he drives to the track, all in the normal day. How do you divide that up among several employers? Seems to me he is basically at the track and working for a number of employers at the same time.

SOunds like an independent contractor.

Now there was another pt. about benefits and the guild and all that. I think it would be in their best interest if they were to be a certified bargaining unit like the NFL players association and then a lot of these issues could be negotiated out and they wouldnt have this ongoing argument about who should pay for what. They wouldnt have to argue about indep. contractor status if the bargaining unit and owners had agreed to it.

OF course owners being rich folks arent likely to bargain as a unit either. So there is a problem there.

You made a pt. about there is no doubt that the owners should pay for medical. Why are you so stuck on this position? It is really an emotional stand you are taking here, logically economically it could be paid for either way. It probably wouldnt change things no matter which way it is done, the jock income probably wouldnt change either way. So why the emotional attahcment to this issue?

I didnt say that the owners should foot the bill , I really think the racetracks should pay for unlimited accident insurance for the jockeys afterall it is their private property . Im sure they have an unlimited accident insurance policy for the patrons who come to the track.
Jockeys are independent contractors until they throw a leg over the horse in the paddock , then they are a payed employee of the owner.
I agree the Guild screwed it up , they pissed off the racetracks and the horseman , but what about the riders who are not in the Guild , dont they get a say in any of this . You wonder why I have an emotional attatchment to this subject , well I was a jockey for 13 years that would be the first reason and the second is that a few of those 58 jocks on the Disabled list are my friends and perhaps some of them were never in the Guild but are now losing the help they were getting .
I will never change my mind , jocks should have unlimited accident isurance while they are on the job , if they go down and get paralyzed or have severe head injuries they shouldnt have to worry if their medical bills are payed and if they will have enough money to eat on. It should be in the insurance policy and to be honest the racetracks should pay for it .

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Honu

I will never change my mind , jocks should have unlimited accident isurance while they are on the job , if they go down and get paralyzed or have severe head injuries they shouldnt have to worry if their medical bills are payed and if they will have enough money to eat on. It should be in the insurance policy and to be honest the racetracks should pay for it .

I read through this thread with interest and was trying to imagine the impact if tracks were the suppliers of an insurance policy. It just seems like things like drug use, actions done to make weight, past exhibited aggression while riding, and previous incidents of injury would be used to determine risk to the track and manipulate jockey participation there. I don't know that we could expect them to merely operate as they have been and pay out when there's an injury--they're gonna want to put their 2 cents in and exert pressure on the jockeys' ability to earn livelihood and perhaps deciding when and where they can ride, as well as when they retire. What about drug tests? Also couldn't they leverage something against overly aggressive jockeys as a way of guarding their investment? We all know not every group of stewards is created equal. Some are going to slap a jockey with some penalty, perhaps they might blame the wrong one or blame nobody when somebody put the lives and careers of other jockeys at risk (and, if we're being cynical, by extension put the track at risk of big payout). Would tracks also be in any way inclined to deal with running horses til they break or issues of unsoundness in general since there's again, additional potential that the jockey would get hurt if a trainer or owner put a risky horse out there. Whole big can of worms and definitely one that needs to be opened. It's just amazing to think of the implications if there are certain approaches taken.