Kevin Durant: the comparisons

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think you are wrong about this guys athletic ability. I cant understand where you are coming from. He is WAY more athletic thann Dirk and has a more polished face up game than KG. Now. He is 6'11, can run, shoot, and pass. What more do you want? He needs to get away from Rick Barnes before he kills him.

Dirk is most likely the MVP of the NBA (I think Nash may have been out too much). You are comparing an 18 year old to a mature pro? No earthly way he is as athletic as Dirk, no flippin way. He might be in 3 years. This is not Lebron James or Carmello Anthony body wise. These guys are absolute horses athletically, Durant is a basketball player. That is what he is. Not a tight end.

Durant is playing against vastly inferior players. He is not a good passer, he will get better. What sets him apart is his variety of moves offensively. And his incredibly long arms. What I want is more muscle. I want better defense. He will get crushed with that body in the pros. It will all come along because he is a player. He knows the game, he has that knack. Just a little more beef and he will be fine.

Rick Barnes kill him? Just wait till he goes 82 games and maybe playoffs, playing 3 times a week traveling constantly, then we will see what killing means. DJ Augustin plays the whole game at point guard, he is the one you should feel sorry for.

Keep em coming. I can type extensively about this kid. I have watched almost all of his games. Villanova did the best job of shutting him down this year. But that was early. Durant continues to advance. His game gets better. Barnes is the best coach he could have had. He has the guts to mold the team to showcase Durant. And I guarantee Durant, all his family and past coaches know this. He is playing with a Point Guard that will also be a good pro, just not next year. Durant could not have landed on a better team for him.
BTW I went to the University of Texas starting in 1978. I have watched Texas basketball for a long time. Rick Barnes is the best coach UT has ever had hands down. I just dont particularly like picking up players for one year. It reminds me off the horses, wisk them off the the shed, in this case, to the pros. Makes it harder to really consider them a part of the school. My little thing. Id rather just let them go pro.

[Samarta]

I'm going old school on this one.....he is the second coming of George "The Iceman" Gervin! Not sure how many of you are old enough to remember, but I know there are some here...For those that didn't have the chance to see him, he was 6'7 or 6'8, silky smooth, unstoppable on the offensive end. Durant is as close to him as I've ever seen....

Originally Posted by Samarta

I'm going old school on this one.....he is the second coming of George "The Iceman" Gervin! Not sure how many of you are old enough to remember, but I know there are some here...For those that didn't have the chance to see him, he was 6'7 or 6'8, silky smooth, unstoppable on the offensive end. Durant is as close to him as I've ever seen....

As kids on the court thats who we all were in San Antonio. Smooth is absolutely correct, I have a hard time thinking of a guy who made basketball look so easy.

The only downside is George would give up as almost as many points as he made.

I am going out on a limb. Durant will be better. They might be tied for the thinnest arms.

[pmayjr]

I agree with the T-Mac comparison, and Mix in a lil Shawn Marion to go with it.

I say these names, because he's much more likely to be a really big #2 (Shooting Guard) or #3 (Small Forward) than he'll ever be a power forward. But The way he can fly over guys to get rebounds with those long arms (when he'll be boxed out a lot lol) is very T-Mac or Marion-esque. That would be the one area where you could compare him to Garnett, is his ability to grab bnoards over people, and if he shows some ability to swat too. But for the multi-faceted inside-outside game that he'll bring on the offensive end, it's all T-Mac and Marion.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Dirk is most likely the MVP of the NBA (I think Nash may have been out too much). You are comparing an 18 year old to a mature pro? No earthly way he is as athletic as Dirk, no flippin way.

Maybe we are thinking of a different Dirk. I am thinking of the one who runs the floor as though he has cement shoes and hasn't bent down in 3 years. The one that has a bunch of quick little tricks and fade aways to get his shot off. The one that has a vertical leap of 3 inches. The Dirk who I think is a great player despite his lack of athleticism. And you were the one who started the comparisons. I believe that he reminds me most of Tom Chambers with Caldwell Jones body.
His body surely is underdeveloped compared to mature NBA players but saying that he is not athletic or is just better than inferior players has me puzzled.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Maybe we are thinking of a different Dirk. I am thinking of the one who runs the floor as though he has cement shoes and hasn't bent down in 3 years. The one that has a bunch of quick little tricks and fade aways to get his shot off. The one that has a vertical leap of 3 inches. The Dirk who I think is a great player despite his lack of athleticism. And you were the one who started the comparisons. I believe that he reminds me most of Tom Chambers with Caldwell Jones body.
His body surely is underdeveloped compared to mature NBA players but saying that he is not athletic or is just better than inferior players has me puzzled.

Watch Dirk when the playoffs start and he grabs double digit rebounds every game. A 7 foot player getting perimeter rebounds. The guy is as mobile as they come for a 7 footer. And much, much stronger than Durant. If Durant becomes Dirk Nowitzki he will exceed all expectations. We are talking MVP of the NBA, not the NCAA. Your are watching Dirk's athletic skills against men, Durant against boys. BTW I got Durant listed as 6' 9".
You are correct about his little tricks, they are amazing. But the guy is all over the place in the playoffs. Especially against San Antonio.

Now compared to McGrady and Mellow Dirk clearly lags. But the guy is 7 feet tall. What 7 footer do you know of that moves better than Dirk? The guy is amazingly mobile. He is a freak. Maybe because he is white...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Watch Dirk when the playoffs start and he grabs double digit rebounds every game. A 7 foot player getting perimeter rebounds. The guy is as mobile as they come for a 7 footer. And much, much stronger than Durant. If Durant becomes Dirk Nowitzki he will exceed all expectations. We are talking MVP of the NBA, not the NCAA. Your are watching Dirk's athletic skills against men, Durant against boys. BTW I got Durant listed as 6' 9".
You are correct about his little tricks, they are amazing. But the guy is all over the place in the playoffs. Especially against San Antonio.

Now compared to McGrady and Mellow Dirk clearly lags. But the guy is 7 feet tall. What 7 footer do you know of that moves better than Dirk? The guy is amazingly mobile. He is a freak. Maybe because he is white...

He gets rebounds because he is seven feet tall plus he guards post players on D because he is not athletic enough to guard anyone else. I am not saying that he is not a great offensive player, because he is but he is not mobile, cant jump, and has no lateral movement. He is a great player because he can score period. Sure he is stronger than Durant now but he is 10 years older. Name one big man who came into Pro basketball with size and skills to match as a teenager? I can think of one. Moses Malone, and he was weak then compared to his later years when he bulked up.

Athletic is athletic is athletic. You have athletic skills regardless of your competition. I'm sure that Durant could outrun Dirk, out jump Dirk, out move him. By a signifigant margin. Is he the player that Dirk is? Not right now he's not. But he is still growing, has not filled out his frame, he looks like he is about 12 when you see his face. His touch is uncanny. I have probably seen him play 10-12 times this year. As a matter of fact he is one of the few interesting players in college basketball. Love to watch him and I didn't judge Barnes on one game. I thought he let the Kansas game slip through his hands and I still cant figure out how you dont double team Acie Law at the end of the game.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He gets rebounds because he is seven feet tall plus he guards post players on D because he is not athletic enough to guard anyone else. I am not saying that he is not a great offensive player, because he is but he is not mobile, cant jump, and has no lateral movement. He is a great player because he can score period. Sure he is stronger than Durant now but he is 10 years older. Name one big man who came into Pro basketball with size and skills to match as a teenager? I can think of one. Moses Malone, and he was weak then compared to his later years when he bulked up.

Athletic is athletic is athletic. You have athletic skills regardless of your competition. I'm sure that Durant could outrun Dirk, out jump Dirk, out move him. By a signifigant margin. Love to watch him and I didn't judge Barnes on one game. I thought he let the Kansas game slip through his hands and I still cant figure out how you dont double team Acie Law at the end of the game.

He can guard 3's (the position, not the shot) better than any 7 footer in the league.

You have to have a reference point, come on. Durant is playing against kids that are not nearly as strong, as fast, have hops like the pros. I am sure Dirk, at this point, is MORE atheletic than Durant. Lateral movement, are you kidding. Thats how he rebounds so well out high. Dirk has fantastic lateral movement for a man his size. Avery has made him play defense.
Durant barely has muscles yet. And I must repeat, Durant is not a great athlete, he is a great NCAA basketball player. Muscles move bones. Bones move the body. I think we may be mixing coordination with athleticism. Durant is incredibly well coordinated for an 18 year old. But this is because he has lived in the gym since he was 12 years old. His mentor would not allow him to play in pick up games and drilled him on fundamentals and balance. In fact over the Winter break he went right back to the gym to be drilled by this same mentor. Durant is single minded... good thing he can play basketball so well, he is a horrible speaker.

You dont double Acie Law because he does what he just did against Louisville (at home, which I still cant figure out how a 6th seed gets two home games in the first two rounds) He finds the open man for wide open slashes, or 3's. And the 3 Law made was pure luck, he said so, he shot a knucle ball, it had zero rotation. Kirk is ATM's best 3 point shooter, thats who Barnes was worried about shooting.

And you nailed it with Moses Malone. I totally agree. He was a monster under the boards the minute he stepped on the the court.

Keep em coming. I reserve the right to ask you horsie questions so I can learn more.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

He can guard 3's (the position, not the shot) better than any 7 footer in the league.

You have to have a reference point, come on. Durant is playing against kids that are not nearly as strong, as fast, have hops like the pros. I am sure Dirk, at this point, is MORE atheletic than Durant. Lateral movement, are you kidding. Thats how he rebounds so well out high. Dirk has fantastic lateral movement for a man his size. Avery has made him play defense.
Durant barely has muscles yet. And I must repeat, Durant is not a great athlete, he is a great NCAA basketball player. Muscles move bones. Bones move the body. I think we may be mixing coordination with athleticism. Durant is incredibly well coordinated for an 18 year old. But this is because he has lived in the gym since he was 12 years old. His mentor would not allow him to play in pick up games and drilled him on fundamentals and balance. In fact over the Winter break he went right back to the gym to be drilled by this same mentor. Durant is single minded... good thing he can play basketball so well, he is a horrible speaker.

You dont double Acie Law because he does what he just did against Louisville (at home, which I still cant figure out how a 6th seed gets two home games in the first two rounds) He finds the open man for wide open slashes, or 3's. And the 3 Law made was pure luck, he said so, he shot a knucle ball, it had zero rotation. Kirk is ATM's best 3 point shooter, thats who Barnes was worried about shooting.

And you nailed it with Moses Malone. I totally agree. He was a monster under the boards the minute he stepped on the the court.

Keep em coming. I reserve the right to ask you horsie questions so I can learn more.

I dont think Dirk can guard any 3 in the NBA. None. Zero. I saw Marc Jackson light him up. Marc freakin Jackson. Dirk has zero lateral movement. He plays passable D, he often rests on D because he is usually guarding the other teams least effective player. Avery knows where his bread is buttered unlike Barnes. You seem to have a fascination with Durants muscles. Being skinny has nothing to do with being athletic.
You dont let the other teams best player beat you, period. Louisville doubles everyone and A=M prepared for it (not that they were that effective).

BTW - I have a few highly placed NBA sources that I steal some info from occasionally, I'm not just shooting from the hip.

[ddthetide]

i think durant and texas get Tar Heeled next week.

[Samarta]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Maybe we are thinking of a different Dirk. I am thinking of the one who runs the floor as though he has cement shoes and hasn't bent down in 3 years. The one that has a bunch of quick little tricks and fade aways to get his shot off. The one that has a vertical leap of 3 inches. The Dirk who I think is a great player despite his lack of athleticism. And you were the one who started the comparisons. I believe that he reminds me most of Tom Chambers with Caldwell Jones body.
His body surely is underdeveloped compared to mature NBA players but saying that he is not athletic or is just better than inferior players has me puzzled.

I must be watching a different guy. All you have to do is listen to the experts. I'm not talking about old play by play guys, I'm talking about guys like Magic, Barkley, Smith, and all the ESPN guys. All they do is talk about what a freak he is. Never not one time has anyone mentioned a lack of athleticism. This guy is hands down the MVP. 7 footer, that basically plays between a 2 or 3. Sure he gives up points, but the upside is he is the MVP.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Samarta

I must be watching a different guy. All you have to do is listen to the experts. I'm not talking about old play by play guys, I'm talking about guys like Magic, Barkley, Smith, and all the ESPN guys. All they do is talk about what a freak he is. Never not one time has anyone mentioned a lack of athleticism. This guy is hands down the MVP. 7 footer, that basically plays between a 2 or 3. Sure he gives up points, but the upside is he is the MVP.

He is a freak because of his offensive skills at his size, not because he is athletic. In the NBA there really arent 2's or 3's. It is all about matchups and exploiting them. He is a tough match up because of his shooting skills. It is hard for most guys his size to play perimeter D and if they put a smaller man on him, Dallas will try to post him where he can take advantage of his size. Height and touch are not athletic attributes. I never said he was not a great player and I could care less what TV analysts say because they are paid to talk up the guys that are going to be featured on their networks. What they tell you as the general public is often contrary to what they really believe. My observations are based upon watching an unhealthy amount of games and talking candidly, off the record with knowledgeable basketball people. It is all just opinion but I do enjoy the debates.

Mr. Cannon is correct I believe about the offensive skills Dirk has developed. They are quite extraordinary. Where we disagree I believe is what athletic is. Dirk is not a guy that flies thru the air jamming balls. I just happen to think his mobility is tremendous. He is not a great leaper (either is Durant BTW). But thats not what I look at. Dirk can dunk the ball mightly if needed, he is just wise enough to understand the effort is better used in other areas like keeping the ball alive on the offensive end after a missed shot which he is a master at. And that takes mobility, quick feet. I call that athletic.

And I also agree about the announcers/ anlaysts. Thats why they are in the booth and not GM's. Just because they are ex-players does not mean the evaluate talent properly. They are entertainers.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

But thats not what I look at. Dirk can dunk the ball mightly

I hope he can... he is 7 feet tall!

I think he has good footwork for a player of his size but that does not equate to athletism to me.

When I think of athletic I think of tests like the NFL combine. A guy may be a great "athlete" but not a great player. He may have more athletic skill but not skills specific to his sport. His athletic score may be high but his playing abilities and insticts are not there.

Pgardn, Have you ever watched Dirk in person?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I hope he can... he is 7 feet tall!

I think he has good footwork for a player of his size but that does not equate to athletism to me.

When I think of athletic I think of tests like the NFL combine. A guy may be a great "athlete" but not a great player. He may have more athletic skill but not skills specific to his sport. His athletic score may be high but his playing abilities and insticts are not there.

Pgardn, Have you ever watched Dirk in person?

Yes. On the floor level. And will tell you again he is athletic. You have to look who he is playing against as a yardstick. He is more athletic than Durant, whom I have also watched floor level in Austin. I will also tell you Tony Parker is the fastest person I have ever seen in the NBA with the ball. I will tell you Tim Duncan has no hops anymore, but has the best hands of any big man in the NBA.

Get a little lucky with tickets here and there. The guy who coached my daughter in AAU roomed with Spurs assistant RC Buford (a great guy at picking talent, partially responsible for Parker, Ginobili and Barbosa now on Phoenix). They both played on the ATM 1980 team that beat North Carolina and went further in the NCAA than any ATM playoff team. So I do get to talk with people who watch. Buford was on the Bench. Sylestine played and was a great role player for that team. And I do not always agree with these guys either.

I will continue further by saying if those stupid Aggies dont pay Billy Gillispie more money they will lose one of the best coaches in college basketball. A guy a would take over Rick Barnes. A guy who just outcoached Rick Pitino imo.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Pgardn, Have you ever watched Dirk in person?

Have you ever watched the Spurs play Dallas? on the floor more than once?

[Samarta]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I hope he can... he is 7 feet tall!

I think he has good footwork for a player of his size but that does not equate to athletism to me.

When I think of athletic I think of tests like the NFL combine. A guy may be a great "athlete" but not a great player. He may have more athletic skill but not skills specific to his sport. His athletic score may be high but his playing abilities and insticts are not there.

Pgardn, Have you ever watched Dirk in person?

Was Larry Bird athletic?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

. He has the guts to mold the team to showcase Durant.

You are kidding me? It takes guts to showcase the best player in college basketball? It would take guts to take him out occasionally and give him a breather so he does not run out of gas late. Rick Barnes is a terrible game coach.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are kidding me? It takes guts to showcase the best player in college basketball? It would take guts to take him out occasionally and give him a breather so he does not run out of gas late. Rick Barnes is a terrible game coach.

Barnes is a great coach because he molds his schemes to fit the talent, not vice versa. Every year. You call him a horrible game coach after last night? He has 1 of his 4 freshman playing extremely nervous. Blows two layups. He brings in a little used senior, knows exactly what he can do, and has him hit a three in a critical point in the game. The kid is 6 10, he puts him down low to bang because Texas is very weak down low and the Barnes knows the refs are calling the game in a brutal manner down low. So the kid is just mugging people and getting away with it. Setting moving picks the refs are not calling. Instead of screaming at refs, Barnes goes with what they are not calling. The kid fouls out with 2 minutes left in the game, its already over. He has done his job. HE PLAYS THE MOST MINUTES ALL YEAR IN THE FIRST NCAA PLAYOFF GAME AND YOU CALL BARNES A BAD GAME COACH? I call that knowing your talent and knowing the way the game is being called. I call that flexibility and creativity. You call it bad. Barnes may not be the best game coach, but he certainly is not bad.

Durant takes breathers during games on defense and offense. Barnes tells him to do exactly this. He moves him down in the zone when he tires instead of the middle where he belongs with those arms. Still effective but he does not have to move. This then leads to the Cherry picks. Durant rebounds and heaves the ball down the court. You saw last night if you got the Texas game. He does not even come down the floor on offense. It is an absolutely great way to keep the best player on the floor. Brilliant.

Again if you want to gripe about overuse, its DJ Augustin. A point guard in fantastic shape that plays the whole game. Point Guards dont get to false post up (rest) and lay back in the zone(rest), and not run down the court on Cherry picks(rest). But Augustin has become long distance hound.

BTW Mr. Cannon. I appreciate your challenging questions. It allows me to spout off... my wife and daughter have stopped listening, can you believe that.

[jpops757]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Dirk is most likely the MVP of the NBA (I think Nash may have been out too much). You are comparing an 18 year old to a mature pro? No earthly way he is as athletic as Dirk, no flippin way. He might be in 3 years. This is not Lebron James or Carmello Anthony body wise. These guys are absolute horses athletically, Durant is a basketball player. That is what he is. Not a tight end.

Durant is playing against vastly inferior players. He is not a good passer, he will get better. What sets him apart is his variety of moves offensively. And his incredibly long arms. What I want is more muscle. I want better defense. He will get crushed with that body in the pros. It will all come along because he is a player. He knows the game, he has that knack. Just a little more beef and he will be fine.

Rick Barnes kill him? Just wait till he goes 82 games and maybe playoffs, playing 3 times a week traveling constantly, then we will see what killing means. DJ Augustin plays the whole game at point guard, he is the one you should feel sorry for.

Keep em coming. I can type extensively about this kid. I have watched almost all of his games. Villanova did the best job of shutting him down this year. But that was early. Durant continues to advance. His game gets better. Barnes is the best coach he could have had. He has the guts to mold the team to showcase Durant. And I guarantee Durant, all his family and past coaches know this. He is playing with a Point Guard that will also be a good pro, just not next year. Durant could not have landed on a better team for him.
BTW I went to the University of Texas starting in 1978. I have watched Texas basketball for a long time. Rick Barnes is the best coach UT has ever had hands down. I just dont particularly like picking up players for one year. It reminds me off the horses, wisk them off the the shed, in this case, to the pros. Makes it harder to really consider them a part of the school. My little thing. Id rather just let them go pro.

You make me wonder if you have seen Dirk. Durant is head and sholders superior athleticaly. Im a very strong Dirk fan but this is very obvious. Dirka weak point is athletic ability. Im not sure what position will be Durants strongest. He has th skills for all 5 and could cause match up nightmares at any of them. He has shortcommings that could be exploited at all of them too.Even with his scoring potential the one could be his potential strongest position. Shades of Majic , just bigger and probably quicker. King got it right Barbosa is the fastest with Jet Terry chalanging for pure speed but harris is Quicker moving with the ball.