Maiden Derby winners

[boswd]

You also have to remember, back then The Derby didn't have some prestige that it holds now. It was still an important race but the Belmont, Preakness and even The Travers were regarding as more important races.
I think it was in the 40's when the Derby started to make it's move as the most important race.
So therefore you would get some "not so great" horses winning the Derby

[Linny]

Great points easy goer.

Remember too that timing was far less accurate in 1920. Are races were timed manually and it's not like they could verify "odd" times with a videotape. Starts were chaotic and a few 1/2 seconds one way or the other make a big difference.
Tracks were not groomed and prepared surfaces as they are today. Drainage was dreadful and the condition "heavy" was common.

[slotdirt]

Totally forgot about the lack of a starting gate back then. I wish I had some video of that, but having seen a start at a steeplechase, I have to imagine a mass start back in Man O'War's day was completely chaotic.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by boswd

You also have to remember, back then The Derby didn't have some prestige that it holds now. It was still an important race but the Belmont, Preakness and even The Travers were regarding as more important races.
I think it was in the 40's when the Derby started to make it's move as the most important race.
So therefore you would get some "not so great" horses winning the Derby

i glanced over part of the book dealing with the derby, and mow not going there.
i know riddle thought about it-and also mentions that he thought about regret, the first filly to win it, and that she was off til august after doing so. riddle wanted to enjoy the horse and racing all year, and of course back then travelling to ky wasn't quite so easy as now. it also mentions about horses sickening, or even dying, due to shipping. riddle preferred keeping man o war right there on the east coast within hours of many different tracks.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i glanced over part of the book dealing with the derby, and mow not going there.
i know riddle thought about it-and also mentions that he thought about regret, the first filly to win it, and that she was off til august after doing so. riddle wanted to enjoy the horse and racing all year, and of course back then travelling to ky wasn't quite so easy as now. it also mentions about horses sickening, or even dying, due to shipping. riddle preferred keeping man o war right there on the east coast within hours of many different tracks.

So in essence MOW won the three most important races for 3 yr olds back then. And since there really wasn't a Triple Crown as we now it, in an odd way MOW did win it. With The Preakness, the Belmont and the Travers being the most important races back in 1920.

interesting, I think there is only one horse to win both the derby and the Travers, or is it TC + Travers? Hmmm, is The Bid? What am I thinking of?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by easy goer

interesting, I think there is only one horse to win both the derby and the Travers, or is it TC + Travers? Hmmm, is The Bid? What am I thinking of?

There have been a lot of horses to win both the Derby and Travers...and Spectacular Bid wasn't one of them...he didn't start in the Travers.

Affirmed and Whirlaway are the only two triple crown winners to cross the wire first in the Travers---and Affirmed was DQ'ed.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by boswd

So in essence MOW won the three most important races for 3 yr olds back then. And since there really wasn't a Triple Crown as we now it, in an odd way MOW did win it. With The Preakness, the Belmont and the Travers being the most important races back in 1920.

i finished the book today, interesting that one of MOW's records stayed on the book for years, until the legend known as kelso finally broke it. and for those who bring up him 'ducking' exterminator-ex wasn't even considered the top older horse, sir barton was....ex was considered the best stayer-and he had a couple shots at man o war, and bypassed them. and of course man o war met with the mighty sir barton, the rest as they say is history...i recommend that book to anyone who might be interested. it was pretty good, well-researched, and not a 'drool fest'. i had read several books on big red previously, and found stuff in here that i hadn't known about--especially about 'hopped horses'. seems way back when, they used to run some of their horses on cocaine!!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Sir Barton never won again after the match race loss to Man O' War.

He was 3rd as an odds-on favorite at LRL in his next start. Than was 3rd in a $3,600 stake at Pimlico at 2/5 odds. He finished his career, fittingly running 2nd to stablemate Billy Kelly in a stake at Pimlico.

I say fittingly, because Billy Kelly beat Sir Barton nine times in his career.

Can you explain wha the DQ reasoning on Affirmed was? I like studying the history of these fellas and finding out about these DQs sometimes adds to their legend or not...

What about the Secretariat/ANgle Light fiasco? Book I was reading said Turcotte said it was shameful but have heard other things.

The Dr Fager one seemed ridiculous, Ive seen the footage on that, it happens on the back stretch, seemed ridiculous. I count that in his column.

Or Genuine Risk/ COdex was it? Was that a bad one?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by easy goer

Can you explain wha the DQ reasoning on Affirmed was? I like studying the history of these fellas and finding out about these DQs sometimes adds to their legend or not...

What about the Secretariat/ANgle Light fiasco? Book I was reading said Turcotte said it was shameful but have heard other things.

The Dr Fager one seemed ridiculous, Ive seen the footage on that, it happens on the back stretch, seemed ridiculous. I count that in his column.

Or Genuine Risk/ COdex was it? Was that a bad one?

There is probably footage of the Travers race w/ Affirmed & Alydar on You-tube, but Pincay dropped Affirmed right in front of Alydar as the latter was making his charge on the turn.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i finished the book today, interesting that one of MOW's records stayed on the book for years, until the legend known as kelso finally broke it. and for those who bring up him 'ducking' exterminator-ex wasn't even considered the top older horse, sir barton was....ex was considered the best stayer-and he had a couple shots at man o war, and bypassed them. and of course man o war met with the mighty sir barton, the rest as they say is history...i recommend that book to anyone who might be interested. it was pretty good, well-researched, and not a 'drool fest'. i had read several books on big red previously, and found stuff in here that i hadn't known about--especially about 'hopped horses'. seems way back when, they used to run some of their horses on cocaine!!

What book was it that you read? I love the old history books on horse racing. I mentioned this earlier in the thread but in case you missed it. read "They're Off!!!! Horse racing at Saratoga." Fantastic book about the history of the sport not only for The Spa but all over from Churhill Down, the Belmont to Santa Anita and all those old tracks down in Queens, and Long Island. Also all the sports greats. Wonderful book and a must for any horse racing fan.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by boswd

What book was it that you read? I love the old history books on horse racing. I mentioned this earlier in the thread but in case you missed it. read "They're Off!!!! Horse racing at Saratoga." Fantastic book about the history of the sport not only for The Spa but all over from Churhill Down, the Belmont to Santa Anita and all those old tracks down in Queens, and Long Island. Also all the sports greats. Wonderful book and a must for any horse racing fan.

it's man o war, a legend like lightning by dorothy ours. it just came out a few months ago.

Linny you are correct about Morvich, according to Avalyn Hunter he was badly conformed and probably his legs were only good for the dozen or so races. He raced four more times, hitting the board 3x then fourth out of four in the Fall Highwt. Hdcp.