not such a bad idea IMO

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

the first part of your sentence hit on the real problem...we need a national governing body for the sport...

It simply wont happen

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It simply wont happen

I agree, but what is needed and what is done are often 2 different things.

[Cannon Shell]

This idea is one of the most shallow attempts by the Jockeys Guild to extort money yet.

If a horse comes up positive it is DQed because it supposedly was artificially enhanced and had an advantage over the other horses in the race. If this is true then why should the jockey benefit?

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This idea is one of the most shallow attempts by the Jockeys Guild to extort money yet.

If a horse comes up positive it is DQed because it supposedly was artificially enhanced and had an advantage over the other horses in the race. If this is true then why should the jockey benefit?

I agree with what you are saying...but to lplay devil's advocate...look at it from another perspective...the jockey didn't know that the horse he was on was going to test and he fufilled his obligation to ride the horse to the best of his ability...so why should he get screwed out of purse money when he didn't do anything wrong?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

I agree with what you are saying...but to lplay devil's advocate...look at it from another perspective...the jockey didn't know that the horse he was on was going to test and he fufilled his obligation to ride the horse to the best of his ability...so why should he get screwed out of purse money when he didn't do anything wrong?

Because the horse he rode was not eligible to earn money. By DQing the horse you are effectively saying that the horse is not eligible because he has an UNFAIR advantage. Has nothing to do with the jockey or obligation to ride. What if the gate opens a half secong early and the horse is deemed a non starter like what happened in Ohio last sumer. Should the jock still get paid his share of the purse?
If the bank makes a mistake and spits out an extra $1000 at the ATM can you keep it?

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

I agree with what you are saying...but to lplay devil's advocate...look at it from another perspective...the jockey didn't know that the horse he was on was going to test and he fufilled his obligation to ride the horse to the best of his ability...so why should he get screwed out of purse money when he didn't do anything wrong?

This might be a little off topic, but what happens when a jockey screws the trainers and owners by giving crappy rides or getting DQ'd for careless riding or interference. I understand they lose business, but what if the owners demanded part of the purse that they lost. Like in the Top Flight when Rahys' Appeal was DQ's because Alan Garcia hit Malibu Mint in the face with the whip. The stewards made a poor decesion, but still the owners lost out on some dollars. In the grand scheme of it all, who get screwed more? The owners and trainers because of the jocks? Or the other way around?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

This might be a little off topic, but what happens when a jockey screws the trainers and owners by giving crappy rides or getting DQ'd for careless riding or interference. I understand they lose business, but what if the owners demanded part of the purse that they lost. Like in the Top Flight when Rahys' Appeal was DQ's because Alan Garcia hit Malibu Mint in the face with the whip. The stewards made a poor decesion, but still the owners lost out on some dollars. In the grand scheme of it all, who get screwed more? The owners and trainers because of the jocks? Or the other way around?

good point.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

This might be a little off topic, but what happens when a jockey screws the trainers and owners by giving crappy rides or getting DQ'd for careless riding or interference. I understand they lose business, but what if the owners demanded part of the purse that they lost. Like in the Top Flight when Rahys' Appeal was DQ's because Alan Garcia hit Malibu Mint in the face with the whip. The stewards made a poor decesion, but still the owners lost out on some dollars. In the grand scheme of it all, who get screwed more? The owners and trainers because of the jocks? Or the other way around?

a direct act...like giving a horse an illegal medication is different than a bad call by the stewards or a crap ride...IMO
I'm not saying that you're argument doesn't have merit...but judgement calls that don't go your way shouldn't be looked at the same as violations of stated medication rules...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

a direct act...like giving a horse an illegal medication is different than a bad call by the stewards or a crap ride...IMO
I'm not saying that you're argument doesn't have merit...but judgement calls that don't go your way shouldn't be looked at the same as violations of stated medication rules...

What is a more direct act than bearing out into another horse or hitting them in the face with a whip. How do you know that a positive test was the result of a direct act?

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What is a more direct act than bearing out into another horse or hitting them in the face with a whip. How do you know that a positive test was the result of a direct act?

maybe my wording was wrong or unclear...I meant a deliberate act (I realize some race riding tactics are deliberate, but not all of them are and that is why there are stewards--good or bad--to decide if there was intent)...and I guess the medications that I am referring to are the kind that would have to be the result of a bad act (and the trainer responsibilty means it falls on you guys)...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

I agree with what you are saying...but to lplay devil's advocate...look at it from another perspective...the jockey didn't know that the horse he was on was going to test and he fufilled his obligation to ride the horse to the best of his ability...so why should he get screwed out of purse money when he didn't do anything wrong?

it's an interesting debate. on the one hand, you have a jock who rode a winner, and did his job-on the other, had the horse not been aided, would he have won? if you assume he would not have, the jockey wouldn't receive his share, as the horse wouldn't have won. but if you assume the horse would have won, then the jock is screwed...
but if the trainer has to pay out-then in future, maybe he wouldn't aid the horse, and let the best one win-rather than make the attempt, and pay out the jocks portion because of dishonesty or carelessness.


but knowing how unions work, the guild i would assume gets paid a portion of jocks earnings...so if two jocks get that portion, they get double too-right? good for the guild!

[Danzig]

oh boy...

yeah, a HUGE can of worms opening here....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

it's an interesting debate. on the one hand, you have a jock who rode a winner, and did his job-on the other, had the horse not been aided, would he have won? if you assume he would not have, the jockey wouldn't receive his share, as the horse wouldn't have won. but if you assume the horse would have won, then the jock is screwed...
but if the trainer has to pay out-then in future, maybe he wouldn't aid the horse, and let the best one win-rather than make the attempt, and pay out the jocks portion because of dishonesty or carelessness.


but knowing how unions work, the guild i would assume gets paid a portion of jocks earnings...so if two jocks get that portion, they get double too-right? good for the guild!

Guild is not a union

[Cannon Shell]

I would bet more jockeys have cheated by riding overweight and using machines than trainers INTENTIONALLY druged a horse by a wide margin.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Guild is not a union

but how is the guild funded?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

but how is the guild funded?

jocks pay a per mount fee.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This idea is one of the most shallow attempts by the Jockeys Guild to extort money yet.

If a horse comes up positive it is DQed because it supposedly was artificially enhanced and had an advantage over the other horses in the race. If this is true then why should the jockey benefit?

Because the jockey fullfilled his or her engagement by showing up , pulling weight , taking the risk and riding the race. Ive had it happen to me when I was riding , the trainer got a bad test and the next week they took it out of my paycheck, I didnt do anything wrong , infact I did everything right and so now Im going to get screwed out of my money that I earned because the trainer was a bonehead.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Honu

Because the jockey fullfilled his or her engagement by showing up , pulling weight , taking the risk and riding the race. Ive had it happen to me when I was riding , the trainer got a bad test and the next week they took it out of my paycheck, I didnt do anything wrong , infact I did everything right and so now Im going to get screwed out of my money that I earned because the trainer was a bonehead.

As a rider did you ever know or have suspicions that one of the trainers that you were ridng for was illegally medicating some of his horses that you might or might not have been riding?

[Honu]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

As a rider did you ever know or have suspicions that one of the trainers that you were ridng for was illegally medicating some of his horses that you might or might not have been riding?

I dont know exactly what you mean by that , did I know that some horses were blocked for races yes I knew but I had got on them in the mornings and so I pretty much knew how bad they were. Did I know if a trainer gave to much bute or something like that not a clue, but I can tell you I would know if they tapped them or something like that because usually they would be moving better.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Honu

I dont know exactly what you mean by that , did I know that some horses were blocked for races yes I knew but I had got on them in the mornings and so I pretty much knew how bad they were. Did I know if a trainer gave to much bute or something like that not a clue, but I can tell you I would know if they tapped them or something like that because usually they would be moving better.

I am not sure what you meant by blocked. The point I was trying to make was, that if you had a hunch or maybe even knew that a trainer you were riding for was jucing horses, how could you be suprised if he was flagged and you didn't get your cut. I think you as a jockey are in a very bad place, because if you know what are you supposed to do? Report the trainer and maybe face a backlash from the rest of the trainers and colony. Or maybe just not ride the horse, but if it is a smalltime track, maybe mounts are tough to come by. Plus you know someone else will just pick up the original mount anyway. If you have no idea and the horse gets flagged then you get screwed out of your cut. It just seems to be a bad situation either way.