kip devile 9/2 vs. showing up 6/1

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by boldruler

No good trainer goes asking clockers how their horse is doing. They know. I remember for the Derby my friend telling me how the clockers didn't even pick up one of Barbaro's works. These clockers are good at what they do, but unless they know what a trainer wants out of the work it is pointless. Also, clockers at belmont see a horse work over the turf one day a week, on Sunday mornings. If it was dirt I would say the clockers know their stuff, but turf works are so rare that no clocker could give an honest opinion on how a horse worked. Showing Up has completely different action on the turf, not the same horse as on the dirt.

You are flat out wrong. Like any business, there is a great disparity between the relative talents of different people doing the same thing, and there are many trainers ( many top trainers ) who are very interested in the opinions of SOME private clockers ( and some handicappers ). And, in the case of the person being discussed here, his opinions are valued by many. And, I say this not as his friend, because while we are very friendly, we are hardly what you would consider friends.

Trainers can be very interested in the opinions of outsiders whom they respect. The smart person knows enough to learn from those around him ( or her ).

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You are flat out wrong. Like any business, there is a great disparity between the relative talents of different people doing the same thing, and there are many trainers ( many top trainers ) who are very interested in the opinions of SOME private clockers ( and some handicappers ). And, in the case of the person being discussed here, his opinions are valued by many. And, I say this not as his friend, because while we are very friendly, we are hardly what you would consider friends.

Trainers can be very interested in the opinions of outsiders whom they respect. The smart person knows enough to learn from those around him ( or her ).

Maybe clockers are more knowledgeable than my friend, but I rather have the $100K to put up for a stud fee than have $500 to bet on the third at Aqueduct. People that really know the horse business are on the breeding side, where all the money is. The money in the breeding game dwarfs the racing game.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Maybe clockers are more knowledgeable than my friend, but I rather have the $100K to put up for a stud fee than have $500 to bet on the third at Aqueduct. People that really know the horse business are on the breeding side, where all the money is. The money in the breeding game dwarfs the racing game.

But what does that have to do with Showing Up at this point?

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

But what does that have to do with Showing Up at this point?

I am with you Cajun. Maybe it was a personal decision he became a clocker. Who knows, but Showing Up in not going to win this race.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

But what does that have to do with Showing Up at this point?

My friend, the guy who said Barbaro would win easily in the derby said Showing Up is just an easy a cinch here. That was the point. It somehow got into how Oracle knows everything and everyone and is the master of everything. Nothing new here. As usual, he had to start with his calling people idiots.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

My friend, the guy who said Barbaro would win easily in the derby said Showing Up is just an easy a cinch here. That was the point. It somehow got into how Oracle knows everything and everyone and is the master of everything. Nothing new here.

You brought up the breeding side of things though... I can definitely see how most of the money is in the breeding shed, but I will tell you this, without the egg, the chicken never hatches. Does that make any sense? Without the racing industry, the breeding doesn't survive. So, in a nut shell, you can't have one without the other.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

You brought up the breeding side of things though... I can definitely see how most of the money is in the breeding shed, but I will tell you this, without the egg, the chicken never hatches. Does that make any sense? Without the racing industry, the breeding doesn't survive. So, in a nut shell, you can't have one without the other.

My point was that people that really know horses tend to be more on the breeding/bloodstock side of things. They have to be, there is just much more money there. Someone like Demi Obyrne isn't a trainer, but a vet/bloodstock guy. Clockers are much less inclined to know how a horse will run first out on the turf than a guy who is on the breeding/bloodstock side of the game.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

My point was that people that really know horses tend to be more on the breeding/bloodstock side of things. They have to be, there is just much more money there. Someone like Demi Obyrne isn't a trainer, but a vet/bloodstock guy. Clockers are much less inclined to know how a horse will run first out on the turf than a guy who is on the breeding/bloodstock side of the game.

Perhaps, but if you're comparing individuals, I would say it's a safe bet that Joe knows his stuff as well. Clockers as a general rule of thumb may not know as much, but I think that this guy Joe is more than your average clocker.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by boldruler

My point was that people that really know horses tend to be more on the breeding/bloodstock side of things. They have to be, there is just much more money there. Someone like Demi Obyrne isn't a trainer, but a vet/bloodstock guy. Clockers are much less inclined to know how a horse will run first out on the turf than a guy who is on the breeding/bloodstock side of the game.

Many of us in this game have high levels of expertise in very differing parts of the game. While using the generic term " clockers " there may be some truth to what you just wrote, but specifics are much more important, and relevent, to this conversation, and there are some, one specifically that comes to my mind, who probably has as good, and likely better, an idea of how a horse will handle the grass in a racing situation that almost anyone on the breeding/bloodstock side of things. Oddly, for that reason, many people on the other side are very interested in his opinions.

There are a lot of trainers who ask me my opinions of their horses, both generally and specifically. I don't presuppose to know anything close to what they know about training, but they also know that I may have a good idea about the relative chances of their horses, and I'm unbiased.

Originally Posted by boldruler

My point was that people that really know horses tend to be more on the breeding/bloodstock side of things. They have to be, there is just much more money there. Someone like Demi Obyrne isn't a trainer, but a vet/bloodstock guy. Clockers are much less inclined to know how a horse will run first out on the turf than a guy who is on the breeding/bloodstock side of the game.

How is taht exactly? Thats utter nonsense. Pardon me but now you are really clueless!! How could a bloddstock agent know better than an experienced trainer/clocker who actually SEES the horse WORK!!!!?????

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Maybe clockers are more knowledgeable than my friend, but I rather have the $100K to put up for a stud fee than have $500 to bet on the third at Aqueduct. People that really know the horse business are on the breeding side, where all the money is. The money in the breeding game dwarfs the racing game.

First of all, nobody said " clockers ", we are discussing one individual here, and it was simply stated that he is extremely knowledgable.

Secondly, because there is more money on the breeding side, does not make these people more knowledgable about the game.