kip devile 9/2 vs. showing up 6/1

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I HIGHLY doubt your friend knows more about this game than Joe Petrucione. In fact, it is near impossible.

Its absolutely impossible. He may not be the best gambler, and by his own admission he isnt a good handicapper. But noone alive on this planet knows more about watching horses train and understanding works and traning like Joe. Hes relied upon by all the names I mentioned earlier to tell THEM how THEIR horses are doing. Imagine that? Guys who have won all three legs of the tri crown, trained champs, etc call him to see HOW HE THINKS their horses are doing. Trust me boldruler, you are talking out of your ass on this one.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Its absolutely impossible. He may not be the best gambler, and by his own admission he isnt a good handicapper. But noone alive on this planet knows more about watching horses train and understanding works and traning like Joe. Hes relied upon by all the names I mentioned earlier to tell THEM how THEIR horses are doing. Imagine that? Guys who have won all three legs of the tri crown, trained champs, etc call him to see HOW HE THINKS their horses are doing. Trust me boldruler, you are talking out of your ass on this one.

No good trainer goes asking clockers how their horse is doing. They know. I remember for the Derby my friend telling me how the clockers didn't even pick up one of Barbaro's works. These clockers are good at what they do, but unless they know what a trainer wants out of the work it is pointless. Also, clockers at belmont see a horse work over the turf one day a week, on Sunday mornings. If it was dirt I would say the clockers know their stuff, but turf works are so rare that no clocker could give an honest opinion on how a horse worked. Showing Up has completely different action on the turf, not the same horse as on the dirt.

Originally Posted by boldruler

No good trainer goes asking clockers how their horse is doing. They know. I remember for the Derby my friend telling me how the clockers didn't even pick up one of Barbaro's works. These clockers are good at what they do, but unless they know what a trainer wants out of the work it is pointless. Also, clockers at belmont see a horse work over the turf one day a week, on Sunday mornings. If it was dirt I would say the clockers know their stuff, but turf works are so rare that no clocker could give an honest opinion on how a horse worked. Showing Up has completely different action on the turf, not the same horse as on the dirt.

Better give Zito a call and explain to him that hes not a good trainer. Then call Kimmel, call Dutrow, call Frankel, etc. He was a trainer, thats why hes the best. he does understand everything.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Better give Zito a call and explain to him that hes not a good trainer. Then call Kimmel, call Dutrow, call Frankel, etc. He was a trainer, thats why hes the best. he does understand everything.

He can call Aidan O'Brien, Asmussen, Pletcher.....good post Oracle.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Better give Zito a call and explain to him that hes not a good trainer. Then call Kimmel, call Dutrow, call Frankel, etc. He was a trainer, thats why hes the best. he does understand everything.

I guess he just makes more as a clocker now, right? LOL.

[blackthroatedwind]

It was already stated that he USED to be a trainer...and a very good one at that.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It was already stated that he USED to be a trainer...and a very good one at that.

Why is he now a clocker? Can't be more money in that than being a top trainer?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Why is he now a clocker? Can't be more money in that than being a top trainer?

Maybe he likes what he's doing. Maybe he isn't only in it for the money. Maybe, like many of us, he hasn't made the best choice for his talents.

Regardless, non of this takes away from his immense knowledge of the game or the great respect he has earned.

Equating money with success is more than just a slippery slope.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by boldruler

No good trainer goes asking clockers how their horse is doing. They know. I remember for the Derby my friend telling me how the clockers didn't even pick up one of Barbaro's works. These clockers are good at what they do, but unless they know what a trainer wants out of the work it is pointless. Also, clockers at belmont see a horse work over the turf one day a week, on Sunday mornings. If it was dirt I would say the clockers know their stuff, but turf works are so rare that no clocker could give an honest opinion on how a horse worked. Showing Up has completely different action on the turf, not the same horse as on the dirt.

You are flat out wrong. Like any business, there is a great disparity between the relative talents of different people doing the same thing, and there are many trainers ( many top trainers ) who are very interested in the opinions of SOME private clockers ( and some handicappers ). And, in the case of the person being discussed here, his opinions are valued by many. And, I say this not as his friend, because while we are very friendly, we are hardly what you would consider friends.

Trainers can be very interested in the opinions of outsiders whom they respect. The smart person knows enough to learn from those around him ( or her ).

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You are flat out wrong. Like any business, there is a great disparity between the relative talents of different people doing the same thing, and there are many trainers ( many top trainers ) who are very interested in the opinions of SOME private clockers ( and some handicappers ). And, in the case of the person being discussed here, his opinions are valued by many. And, I say this not as his friend, because while we are very friendly, we are hardly what you would consider friends.

Trainers can be very interested in the opinions of outsiders whom they respect. The smart person knows enough to learn from those around him ( or her ).

Maybe clockers are more knowledgeable than my friend, but I rather have the $100K to put up for a stud fee than have $500 to bet on the third at Aqueduct. People that really know the horse business are on the breeding side, where all the money is. The money in the breeding game dwarfs the racing game.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Maybe clockers are more knowledgeable than my friend, but I rather have the $100K to put up for a stud fee than have $500 to bet on the third at Aqueduct. People that really know the horse business are on the breeding side, where all the money is. The money in the breeding game dwarfs the racing game.

But what does that have to do with Showing Up at this point?

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

But what does that have to do with Showing Up at this point?

I am with you Cajun. Maybe it was a personal decision he became a clocker. Who knows, but Showing Up in not going to win this race.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

But what does that have to do with Showing Up at this point?

My friend, the guy who said Barbaro would win easily in the derby said Showing Up is just an easy a cinch here. That was the point. It somehow got into how Oracle knows everything and everyone and is the master of everything. Nothing new here. As usual, he had to start with his calling people idiots.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

My friend, the guy who said Barbaro would win easily in the derby said Showing Up is just an easy a cinch here. That was the point. It somehow got into how Oracle knows everything and everyone and is the master of everything. Nothing new here.

You brought up the breeding side of things though... I can definitely see how most of the money is in the breeding shed, but I will tell you this, without the egg, the chicken never hatches. Does that make any sense? Without the racing industry, the breeding doesn't survive. So, in a nut shell, you can't have one without the other.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Maybe clockers are more knowledgeable than my friend, but I rather have the $100K to put up for a stud fee than have $500 to bet on the third at Aqueduct. People that really know the horse business are on the breeding side, where all the money is. The money in the breeding game dwarfs the racing game.

First of all, nobody said " clockers ", we are discussing one individual here, and it was simply stated that he is extremely knowledgable.

Secondly, because there is more money on the breeding side, does not make these people more knowledgable about the game.