hillary or osama er bama....

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

If we just up and pulled everyone right now DTS, you think that will save more innocent people from dying? You appear to care about lives lost. If we just pulled out, do you have any idea how many INNOCENT Iraqis get slaughtered? The ones without the guns?

We made a mess. We have a responsibility to at least try and stabilize in some manner before we get out. And this is a last ditch effort. Once the other parties know we are leaving, and they feel in a position of strength, slaughters will occur. If they feel it has gone on long enough, and enough insurgent groups are decapitated, fewer will die.

But it would be an attrocity to pull out immediately. And if this last effort goes terribly bad, we still might have an attrocity. But no guilt will be associated with cut and run, letem get slaughtered. Maybe I care about a wider range of people than you.

Pgardn,
You pose some interesting questions.
Answer to the one about innocent Iraqis getting slaughtered...last I read, the Johns-Hopkins one... seems to me that 650,000 should be more than enough to pay back for 9-11, even though the Iraqis weren't involved. Lancet's numbers are similar.
Heck, lets just kill a couple of hundred thousand more if it make you and Dubby sleep better. It's a "just cause" after all.
Question number two...Pat, I didn't make this mess...geesh, I didn't even vote for that dictator/err loser/err war criminal,,,nyuk, nyuck. I wish he's go hunting with his vice president. That would solve some problems.
Question three...Do you really believe there is any more that can be done to "stabalize" that debacle? If you do, good luck on that. Let me tell you, I believe in the Easter bunny too. Let's just throw a few more thousand American kids at this. They believe as well. Dorothy was told how to get home, remember? Click your heels three times and repeat, I wish I was home, I wish I was home.
And another answer..."cut and run" was the label that the failed administration accused others of (Murtha, and others that could see through the charade and labels), those that had some sense to speak against the insanity.
You might not agree with me. Many don't. More do lately (70%).
I can't wait for the World Court to begin the trials.
The rest of the world is onto the "game". They'll want answers too.
As I've said before, genocide is easily justified. It still doesn't make it right.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pgardn,
You pose some interesting questions.
Answer to the one about innocent Iraqis getting slaughtered...last I read, the Johns-Hopkins one... seems to me that 650,000 should be more than enough to pay back for 9-11, even though the Iraqis weren't involved. Lancet's numbers are similar.
Heck, lets just kill a couple of hundred thousand more if it make you and Dubby sleep better. It's a "just cause" after all.
Question number two...Pat, I didn't make this mess...geesh, I didn't even vote for that dictator/err loser/err war criminal,,,nyuk, nyuck. I wish he's go hunting with his vice president. That would solve some problems.
Question three...Do you really believe there is any more that can be done to "stabalize" that debacle? If you do, good luck on that. Let me tell you, I believe in the Easter bunny too. Let's just throw a few more thousand American kids at this. They believe as well. Dorothy was told how to get home, remember? Click your heels three times and repeat, I wish I was home, I wish I was home.
And another answer..."cut and run" was the label that the failed administration accused others of (Murtha, and others that could see through the charade and labels), those that had some sense to speak against the insanity.
You might not agree with me. Many don't. More do lately (70%).
I can't wait for the World Court to begin the trials.
The rest of the world is onto the "game". They'll want answers too.
As I've said before, genocide is easily justified. It still doesn't make it right.

1. Payback? You think W tried to payback Iraq by killing citizens that had nothing to do with 9/11 (not that anybody in Iraq did)? Unlike what many Republicans and yourself believe, I was told we went into Iraq to find weapons of mass destruction, not retribution for 9/11. As no weapons were found in the coming days after the invasion, the Al-Q excuses, get rid of a madman excuse became the primary reason for going in. But I never heard of any payback by body count.

2. I did not make the mess personally myself either. I repeat, I did not vote for George Bush (for rather selfish reasons concerning my father, rip, and cell research for Alzheimers). But DTS, you live in this country as I do. WE made the mess. Like it or not. It is OUR responsibility.

3. Yes. I believe there is the possibility of establishing some order in Baghdad as I stated before using the tactics stated before which could lead to some sort of interim government as I stated before. However I do not believe it is probable, as I stated before. But we as a nation cannot "pull out immediately" as we will have an assurred blood bath. As a citizen of this country, leaving without trying is as morally wrong as anything we have done so far. (Treatment of innocents by some of OUR soldiers, changing OUR reasons for going in after intervention, leaving OUR soldiers in harms way because of knowingly underestimating the number of troops we would need because the public could not stomach it).

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

1. Payback? You think W tried to payback Iraq by killing citizens that had nothing to do with 9/11 (not that anybody in Iraq did)? Unlike what many Republicans and yourself believe, I was told we went into Iraq to find weapons of mass destruction, not retribution for 9/11. As no weapons were found in the coming days after the invasion, the Al-Q excuses, get rid of a madman excuse became the primary reason for going in. But I never heard of any payback by body count.

2. I did not make the mess personally myself either. I repeat, I did not vote for George Bush (for rather selfish reasons concerning my father, rip, and cell research for Alzheimers). But DTS, you live in this country as I do. WE made the mess. Like it or not. It is OUR responsibility.

3. Yes. I believe there is the possibility of establishing some order in Baghdad as I stated before using the tactics stated before which could lead to some sort of interim government as I stated before. However I do not believe it is probable, as I stated before. But we as a nation cannot "pull out immediately" as we will have an assurred blood bath. As a citizen of this country, leaving without trying is as morally wrong as anything we have done so far. (Treatment of innocents by some of OUR soldiers, changing OUR reasons for going in after intervention, leaving OUR soldiers in harms way because of knowingly underestimating the number of troops we would need because the public could not stomach it).

Pgardn,
You might be completely correct. I'll know more after Tues night's State of the Union. I doubt that the dems will show spine in response, however, plenty of good Americans are going to show up in DC on Sat. Maybe just to reaffirm their votes on Nov 7, 2006.
So...here are my responses:
1. The justification for the invasion has changed more often than I change underwear. Seems that the outcome will be decided by the Shia...al Sadr had something decisive to say today...doubt it gets US press. google BBC.
Revenge was certainly sold at the beginning of the debacle...see also: Dixie Chicks, Freedom Fries, "rag-head", 9-11 connects.
2. Reparations. Powell said, "We broke it, we own it." The reconstruction can only happen after some "stability is restored. Alas, it won't happen while our military remains in presence. Yes, we made a mess.
3. I might be way out by saying this, but Iran is the big winner here. The Saudis will have their say. Israel is as victim as the US is. Both countries don't come to the negotiations from a position of strength. We'll have to see how the Saudi's play their cards. They have their oil to play against Iran's and Iraq's...which the Iranians will gain control of.
Heck, there's always the nuke option...already floated by our guys.
These are dangerous times...and here the thread is about handgun control...
Go figure.

[Danzig]

not quite sure how it got into that subject dts...and one of those topics that always seems to generate strong emotion.

but like so many other things--it's not the object that is the danger. it's the person holding it.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

not quite sure how it got into that subject dts...and one of those topics that always seems to generate strong emotion.

but like so many other things--it's not the object that is the danger. it's the person holding it.

Danzig,
You are right, gun control brings out strong feelings.
Seems to me that it depends on where a person lives.
I live in a rural area. Many people here own firearms and use them in a responsible manner. We also have handgun registration and a waiting period.
In more urban settings, many people have a different view.
I wonder how many unregistered handguns are available in major cities.
And, I agree, it's not object, it's the person holding it.
DTS