BC Stunner: 2 days, 3 new races..

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Linny

Would you rather run against Sun King and Lawyer Ron for $1m or Invasor and Premium Tap for $3m. If you have Bernardini, you go for the Classic, if you have a lesser G1 winner or a non G1 winner or have any doubts about your horse being a G1 quality 10f horse, you skip to the Dirt Mile.

And Discreet Cat? The problem is horses like Lawyer Ron should have never been in the BC Classic to begin with. Too many connections of horses are convinced their horses are way better than they are and I doubt many of them are going to be convinced that their horse doesn't have a shot in the Classic so should go in the Dirt Mile.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

And Discreet Cat? The problem is horses like Lawyer Ron should have never been in the BC Classic to begin with. Too many connections of horses are convinced their horses are way better than they are and I doubt many of them are going to be convinced that their horse doesn't have a shot in the Classic so should go in the Dirt Mile.

lawyer ron is a multiple grade winner, and graded placed. he belonged.

volponi and arcangues probably didn't belong either...

[Linny]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

And Discreet Cat? The problem is horses like Lawyer Ron should have never been in the BC Classic to begin with. Too many connections of horses are convinced their horses are way better than they are and I doubt many of them are going to be convinced that their horse doesn't have a shot in the Classic so should go in the Dirt Mile.

The problem is that if those horses don't belong in the Classic then they don't belong in the Dirt Mile either because they are supposed to BOTH be of the same caliber. Also, by giving those kind of horses an "out" you create dull Classics. I'm looking at the chart from '06. St Liam Flower Alley and Perfect Drift were 1-2-3. Take out the "chaff" from that running and you are lfet with those three, Borrego, maybe Sun King (who might have opted for the Dirt Mile if it existed) maybe Oratorio and Suave but who else? Super Frolic, Choctaw Nation, Starcraft, Sir Shackelton, Jack Sullivan? Were any of them really worthy?
Look at "07. After the top 3 finishers and Lava Man, were any of them truly legit G1, 10f horses? Most of the BC races (at least in retrospect) are "filler horses" who's connections thought it worth it to take a shot. They fill such races as the BC, the Derby etc because of the money and prestige. If they had a million dollar option where the level of competition was clearly easier AND they still get full Breeders' Cup credentials (horse and human) why not opt for it. It just another incentive (IMO) to not run against the very best.

[blackthroatedwind]

I think what some people are missing is that there aren't enough quality horses racing to fill the new races. It will simply cause both a dilution and lessening of quality.

Isn't it enough that the BC has cannabalized Grade 1 racing around the country......did they really also need to savage themselves?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think what some people are missing is that there aren't enough quality horses racing to fill the new races. It will simply cause both a dilution and lessening of quality.

Isn't it enough that the BC has cannabalized Grade 1 racing around the country......did they really also need to savage themselves?

I listed these before but do you really think a race comprised of the horses on this list would have been that terrible of a G1? And I don't think any of the other races would have been overly compromised by the loss of the horses listed below.

Discreet Cat
Silver Train
Badge of Silver
Sun King
Brother Derek
Lawyer Ron
Sharp Humor
Siren Lure
Wanderin Boy
Super Frolic
Mass Media
Commentator
Lewis Michael
Sir Greeley
War Front
It's No Joke
Magna Graduate
Papi Chullo
Straight Line
Awesome Twist

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I listed these before but do you really think a race comprised of the horses on this list would have been that terrible of a G1? And I don't think any of the other races would have been overly compromised by the loss of the horses listed below.

Discreet Cat
Silver Train
Badge of Silver
Sun King
Brother Derek
Lawyer Ron
Sharp Humor
Siren Lure
Wanderin Boy
Super Frolic
Mass Media
Commentator
Lewis Michael
Sir Greeley
War Front
It's No Joke
Magna Graduate
Papi Chullo
Straight Line
Awesome Twist

Pretty much....I do think it would have been a terrible Grade 1, especially considering what it would have done to two other Grade 1s being run that day.

There are some names on that list that barely belong out of claiming races.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Pretty much....I do think it would have been a terrible Grade 1, especially considering what it would have done to two other Grade 1s being run that day.

There are some names on that list that barely belong out of claiming races.

Apparently we haven't been watching the same "G1" races in the past couple years. I've seen far worse than that pass for a G1 and actually think it would be well above average for a G1. Yeah, it might have crippled the Cigar Mile which is a valid argument but I don't think it would have a major effect on the BC and would make for a solid betting race.

[blackthroatedwind]

First of all your list would have taken EIGHT horses out of other BC races.


Secondly, five competed in a $200K Grade 2 or 3 race earlier in the day, so I can't imagine how you could even suggest they belong in a Grade 1 championship race.

Thirdly, of the remaining seven, one was hurt ( Commentator )or he would have belonged in the my first grouping, Mass Media had barely competed in 2006, Sharp Humor had made his first start off an injury in a race restricted to NY Breds two weeks earlier and Sir Greeley was too busy sucking up for second in a race that collapsed on that very day in NY ( and was also coming off a layoff ).

That leaves my friend Wanderin Boy, who I am biased about, and while he might have been reasonable, I can't defend his being one of the main contendors in ANY championship race....Silver Train who won the BC Sprint in the prior year and yet did not defend that title so one could say he belongs in my initial category, and Discreet Cat....who I already said belonged. however, one could also argue that there were other BC races for him and he chose to simply sit out.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Linny

Look at "07. After the top 3 finishers and Lava Man, were any of them truly legit G1, 10f horses?

I would contend that David Junior was a legitimate 10f horse (and George Washington ran a big race), the dirt experiment just went awry...but that will continue to happen with Euro horses because some of them will handle it wonderfully (Giant's Causeway, Sahkee...), and others like David Junior won't handle it.

I don't think it means they don't belong per se.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I would contend that David Junior was a legitimate 10f horse (and George Washington ran a big race), the dirt experiment just went awry...but that will continue to happen with Euro horses because some of them will handle it wonderfully (Giant's Causeway, Sahkee...), and others like David Junior won't handle it.

I don't think it means they don't belong per se.

I do think at a certain number of the Euros will still opt for the Classic. David Junior loves 10f but not dirt. Geo Washington did run well considering that he'd have been odds on in the Mile and the move to the Classic was a sporting attempt to duplicate the sensation of Giant's Causeway's game effort in defeat. There are a number of Euro's who prefer 10f to 12f and they may opt for the Classic over the turf.
Most of the weakening will be by US based owners.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Linny

Geo Washington did run well considering that he'd have been odds on in the Mile and the move to the Classic was a sporting attempt to duplicate the sensation of Giant's Causeway's game effort in defeat.

I wouldn't classify it as a " sporting attempt " at all. It was a monetary decision based on his potential increased value with a first or second place finish. Even a victory in the BC mile would have done little to increase his value.

If anything, one could argue they robbed one race of a potentially exciting performer to barely enhance another due to personal greed.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I wouldn't classify it as a " sporting attempt " at all. It was a monetary decision based on his potential increased value with a first or second place finish. Even a victory in the BC mile would have done little to increase his value.

If anything, one could argue they robbed one race of a potentially exciting performer to barely enhance another due to personal greed.

Not to mention a shot at the Sheiks.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Not to mention a shot at the Sheiks.

Agreed...though one could argue that their malevolence was in some ways also sporting in this case.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I wouldn't classify it as a " sporting attempt " at all. It was a monetary decision based on his potential increased value with a first or second place finish. Even a victory in the BC mile would have done little to increase his value.

If anything, one could argue they robbed one race of a potentially exciting performer to barely enhance another due to personal greed.

I guess I just don't feel that George Washington had a whole lot to prove going a mile on the grass -- the connections obviously wanted to improve his value as a stallion, but at the same time it added intrigue to the event.

Adding the world's best miler to America's richest race wasn't such a bad thing for the race itself.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I guess I just don't feel that George Washington had a whole lot to prove going a mile on the grass -- the connections obviously wanted to improve his value as a stallion, but at the same time it added intrigue to the event.

Adding the world's best miler to America's richest race wasn't such a bad thing for the race itself.

I guess if it added intrigue to the race for you then I can't argue with you...but for me he was a total toss and I never even thought about him at any point.

Sort of like Lava Man.