Saddam Hung

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Danzig,
Of course Saddam was a war criminal. I agree that he was.
Also, from reports that I've read from various news sources today, the world opinion is split. One more corpse added to the heap will not solve this situation.
Go back on this thread and read my post #10. Get back later.
DTS

In my opinion, if you think that the US is the big evil, get the hell out of America and go live in the middle east.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

In my opinion, if you think that the US is the big evil, get the hell out of America and go live in the middle east.

Not to be a jerk -- but that's a really bad attitude to have. Nobody, at least as far as i can tell, is trying to insinuate that the U.S. is the "big evil" here. They're just saying that the whole Saddam spectacle did nobody any good. Not a single person benefits from the disgusting way he was "executed" (if you can even use such a dignified term, when it was more accurately lynching or retaliatory joy killing).

I really hate the "if you don't like it, leave" argument -- because it cuts directly past the core of our country...that we're blessed with the right to not only dislike it, but absolutely HATE it at times....and it's still ours and we're still allowed to be a part of it. It's sort of counterintuitive to use that argument because it denies the very core of American values.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Not to be a jerk -- but that's a really bad attitude to have. Nobody, at least as far as i can tell, is trying to insinuate that the U.S. is the "big evil" here. They're just saying that the whole Saddam spectacle did nobody any good. Not a single person benefits from the disgusting way he was "executed" (if you can even use such a dignified term, when it was more accurately lynching or retaliatory joy killing).

I really hate the "if you don't like it, leave" argument -- because it cuts directly past the core of our country...that we're blessed with the right to not only dislike it, but absolutely HATE it at times....and it's still ours and we're still allowed to be a part of it. It's sort of counterintuitive to use that argument because it denies the very core of American values.

You make some valid points about the core of out country, but I think that people should have some patriotism. I mean, terrorists have claimed war against the US, and all some people do over here while they live comfortably and without the fear of being bombed at the super-market, is bash the government and military actions.

While, using hindsight, invading Iraq has been a big problem for our country and was probably not the right move to do (especially that WMD crap), I will always back my government and military for trying to protect us US citizens. And I honestly believe that they (as in the govnt) made the decision to invade Iraq to protect us. I really dont give all the conspiricy theorist's a minute of my time.

There has not been a terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11, and that is not from lack of trying by the terrorists. It is because of the actions of our government and military.

I really feel upset when people bash our military and it's leaders when they are trying to end terrorism, maybe not in the correct way, but the terrorists are so very dangerous action needed to be taken and it was.

Believe me, I dont like Bush... being a gay woman who works in the gambling industry, I think Bush has a very closed minded views on social issues and it upsets me. But I am all for being and feeling safe where I live, even if I cant get married!

But hey, this is my opinion and everyone is entitled to one, I just feel uneasy when people dont support the war on terror.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

You make some valid points about the core of out country, but I think that people should have some patriotism. I mean, terrorists have claimed war against the US, and all some people do over here while they live comfortably and without the fear of being bombed at the super-market, is bash the government and military actions.

While, using hindsight, invading Iraq has been a big problem for our country and was probably not the right move to do (especially that WMD crap), I will always back my government and military for trying to protect us US citizens. And I honestly believe that they (as in the govnt) made the decision to invade Iraq to protect us. I really dont give all the conspiricy theorist's a minute of my time.

There has not been a terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11, and that is not from lack of trying by the terrorists. It is because of the actions of our government and military.

I really feel upset when people bash our military and it's leaders when they are trying to end terrorism, maybe not in the correct way, but the terrorists are so very dangerous action needed to be taken and it was.

Believe me, I dont like Bush... being a gay woman who works in the gambling industry, I think Bush has a very closed minded views on social issues and it upsets me. But I am all for being and feeling safe where I live, even if I cant get married!

But hey, this is my opinion and everyone is entitled to one, I just feel uneasy when people dont support the war on terror.

Wow,
That confession is too good to pass. I'm not a priest, though I play one at times.
Say five our fathers and bathe in holy water, and keep believing that Bush and his buddies are keeping you safe, afterall, the war on terror is all about Iraq, right?
Good luck!!!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

You make some valid points about the core of out country, but I think that people should have some patriotism. I mean, terrorists have claimed war against the US, and all some people do over here while they live comfortably and without the fear of being bombed at the super-market, is bash the government and military actions.

While, using hindsight, invading Iraq has been a big problem for our country and was probably not the right move to do (especially that WMD crap), I will always back my government and military for trying to protect us US citizens. And I honestly believe that they (as in the govnt) made the decision to invade Iraq to protect us. I really dont give all the conspiricy theorist's a minute of my time.

There has not been a terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11, and that is not from lack of trying by the terrorists. It is because of the actions of our government and military.

I really feel upset when people bash our military and it's leaders when they are trying to end terrorism, maybe not in the correct way, but the terrorists are so very dangerous action needed to be taken and it was.

Believe me, I dont like Bush... being a gay woman who works in the gambling industry, I think Bush has a very closed minded views on social issues and it upsets me. But I am all for being and feeling safe where I live, even if I cant get married!

But hey, this is my opinion and everyone is entitled to one, I just feel uneasy when people dont support the war on terror.

I think that we agree more than we think we do -- and that it was just the way you said the original comment that tipped the whole thing.

I agree about patriotism, but what is patriotism? (Funny enough, I started writing a song called "Little Patriot" the other night talking about this exact thing....). Do you have to fall rank and file with your leaders to be patriotic? Do you have to support everything a leader does without question to be patriotic? Is questioning your government and not supporting a leader you don't believe in being patriotic? I contend that no, no, and yes are the answers there.

Being anti-Bush or anti-this-war may not be patriotic if we lived in a different society, but because it is America -- being proud to use one's freedom of speech against authority, in my eyes, is a perfect example of patriotism. Some people don't say it the right way and they don't present their ideas the right way, but being anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-killing saddam does not make one unpatriotic. I would say that cherishing your rights as an American to question things your government does that you don't believe in is just as patriotic as putting an American flag magnet on your pickup before driving it over a Dixie Chicks CD.

I guess I just feel that "patriotism" has been co-opted and redefined by Republican hacks and that they've created and maintained the "with us or against us" mentality. That says that you either 1.) support it, or you 2.)hate your country. That's Ann Coulter logic, which is to say, terribly faulty. Our country is not, and has never been that black and white, that dichotomous...and it never will be.

Is it unpatriotic to be disgusted watching a tyrant get lynched? Is it unpatriotic to admit that he is one of the worst human beings on the planet, but that yet he still does not deserve to be treated that way? Is it unpatriotic to not support the war or its architects, yet be disgusted and shattered every time a U.S. serviceperson is killed or maimed?

The Ann Coulters of the world want us to believe that it's all or nothing. That it is a liberal smokescreen to support the troops but not the war. I feel it is exercising every duty, and right, of an American to call attention to something I feel is inherently un-American while still supporting the Americans that are carrying it out and not wishing any harm upon them.

If that makes me and many of my fellow anti-war players unpatriotic, then we were never talking about the same word to begin with because that kind of patriotism is not one to be proud of.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I think that we agree more than we think we do -- and that it was just the way you said the original comment that tipped the whole thing.

I agree about patriotism, but what is patriotism? (Funny enough, I started writing a song called "Little Patriot" the other night talking about this exact thing....). Do you have to fall rank and file with your leaders to be patriotic? Do you have to support everything a leader does without question to be patriotic? Is questioning your government and not supporting a leader you don't believe in being patriotic? I contend that no, no, and yes are the answers there.

Being anti-Bush or anti-this-war may not be patriotic if we lived in a different society, but because it is America -- being proud to use one's freedom of speech against authority, in my eyes, is a perfect example of patriotism. Some people don't say it the right way and they don't present their ideas the right way, but being anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-killing saddam does not make one unpatriotic. I would say that cherishing your rights as an American to question things your government does that you don't believe in is just as patriotic as putting an American flag magnet on your pickup before driving it over a Dixie Chicks CD.

I guess I just feel that "patriotism" has been co-opted and redefined by Republican hacks and that they've created and maintained the "with us or against us" mentality. That says that you either 1.) support it, or you 2.)hate your country. That's Ann Coulter logic, which is to say, terribly faulty. Our country is not, and has never been that black and white, that dichotomous...and it never will be.

Is it unpatriotic to be disgusted watching a tyrant get lynched? Is it unpatriotic to admit that he is one of the worst human beings on the planet, but that yet he still does not deserve to be treated that way? Is it unpatriotic to not support the war or its architects, yet be disgusted and shattered every time a U.S. serviceperson is killed or maimed?

The Ann Coulters of the world want us to believe that it's all or nothing. That it is a liberal smokescreen to support the troops but not the war. I feel it is exercising every duty, and right, of an American to call attention to something I feel is inherently un-American while still supporting the Americans that are carrying it out and not wishing any harm upon them.

If that makes me and many of my fellow anti-war players unpatriotic, then we were never talking about the same word to begin with because that kind of patriotism is not one to be proud of.

Thank you for having logical and thoughtful responses.

The comment that got under my skin and the reason that I posted that first post was, "Now, let's put the real war criminals on trial." Comments like that just really make me heated.

I agree with your post on patriotism. All the points that you made were valid. Given what I just typed, I feel when someone thinks that the US government is the "real war criminal" instead of the terrorists (and I personally include Saddam under the group "terrorists"), that is not patriotic.

You can disagree with the govnt, be anti-war and anti-bush and be very patriotic, but when you side with the enemy, there is no patriotism in that.

Citizens should be proud of the Freedom and Freedom of Speech that is included in the us citizen package, but just remember, without the people risking/giving their lives in war, presently and in the past, we would not have these Freedom's that we take for granted. The only point I wanted to make throughout this whole debate is to support the people who protect you.

I guess I should not have even posted to begin because politics is a very hard thing to debate especially when two people have very different views. But Brian, you seem to be a very reasonable person to have a debate with.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Thank you for having logical and thoughtful responses.

The comment that got under my skin and the reason that I posted that first post was, "Now, let's put the real war criminals on trial." Comments like that just really make me heated.

I agree with your post on patriotism. All the points that you made were valid. Given what I just typed, I feel when someone thinks that the US government is the "real war criminal" instead of the terrorists (and I personally include Saddam under the group "terrorists"), that is not patriotic.

You can disagree with the govnt, be anti-war and anti-bush and be very patriotic, but when you side with the enemy, there is no patriotism in that.

Citizens should be proud of the Freedom and Freedom of Speech that is included in the us citizen package, but just remember, without the people risking/giving their lives in war, presently and in the past, we would not have these Freedom's that we take for granted. The only point I wanted to make throughout this whole debate is to support the people who protect you.

I guess I should not have even posted to begin because politics is a very hard thing to debate especially when two people have very different views. But Brian, you seem to be a very reasonable person to have a debate with.

i could not agree more. Cindy Sheehan calling Iraqi insurgents who are maiming our soldiers "freedom fighters" is despicable.

i think that the comment that made you originally post is out of line, and you were well within your bounds to say something (although i think you chose a poor way to say it ). Not sure how many "off-topic" threads you read, but I would say to jump in any time you want. Many of us here have wildly different views, and we manage to keep a level of respect. Just off the top of my head, timmgirvan and Bababooyee and I have squared off in the most heated/at times angry discussions on abortion. We don't agree on anything on the topic. I got mad. I'm sure they got frustrated. Do any of us $hit-talk the others afterwards? Nope. We disagreed very badly over something that made us all a little agitated, yet I'm still waiting to hear if Bababooyee is moving to Michigan so we can hang out for handicapping and beers.

I think that by and large, we're all mature enough to handle those disagreements -- so by all means jump in anytime.

This has been a message from the Off-Topic room ambassador.

ps -- I'm really sad that you didn't even MENTION this, as I believe it was one of my very few, shining moments :

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I would say that cherishing your rights as an American to question things your government does that you don't believe in is just as patriotic as putting an American flag magnet on your pickup before driving it over a Dixie Chicks CD.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

i could not agree more. Cindy Sheehan calling Iraqi insurgents who are maiming our soldiers "freedom fighters" is despicable.

i think that the comment that made you originally post is out of line, and you were well within your bounds to say something (although i think you chose a poor way to say it ). Not sure how many "off-topic" threads you read, but I would say to jump in any time you want. Many of us here have wildly different views, and we manage to keep a level of respect. Just off the top of my head, timmgirvan and Bababooyee and I have squared off in the most heated/at times angry discussions on abortion. We don't agree on anything on the topic. I got mad. I'm sure they got frustrated. Do any of us $hit-talk the others afterwards? Nope. We disagreed very badly over something that made us all a little agitated, yet I'm still waiting to hear if Bababooyee is moving to Michigan so we can hang out for handicapping and beers.

I think that by and large, we're all mature enough to handle those disagreements -- so by all means jump in anytime.

This has been a message from the Off-Topic room ambassador.

ps -- I'm really sad that you didn't even MENTION this, as I believe it was one of my very few, shining moments :

I am glad that we agree! Maybe we are more similar that we thought an hour ago. And yes, the words that I chose to make my original post with was in poor taste, but that just sprung from the irkiness (totally not a word) that I felt from reading the "real war criminal" post. I am glad that now, a few thousand words later.. my real point came out!

But believe me... u dont want me to hang out in the politics forum... I have strange views involved with politics... I can be very far "right" with one topic and very "left" with the other topic.. Which is why I classify myself as an Independant! Haha... my views sure would confuse the average forum reader...

oh yea... your dixie chicks comment was pretty bad a$$

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

i could not agree more. Cindy Sheehan calling Iraqi insurgents who are maiming our soldiers "freedom fighters" is despicable.

i think that the comment that made you originally post is out of line, and you were well within your bounds to say something (although i think you chose a poor way to say it ). Not sure how many "off-topic" threads you read, but I would say to jump in any time you want. Many of us here have wildly different views, and we manage to keep a level of respect. Just off the top of my head, timmgirvan and Bababooyee and I have squared off in the most heated/at times angry discussions on abortion. We don't agree on anything on the topic. I got mad. I'm sure they got frustrated. Do any of us $hit-talk the others afterwards? Nope. We disagreed very badly over something that made us all a little agitated, yet I'm still waiting to hear if Bababooyee is moving to Michigan so we can hang out for handicapping and beers.

I think that by and large, we're all mature enough to handle those disagreements -- so by all means jump in anytime.

This has been a message from the Off-Topic room ambassador.

ps -- I'm really sad that you didn't even MENTION this, as I believe it was one of my very few, shining moments :

Actually,Brian, I can't think of anything better to use a pickup for!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

In my opinion, if you think that the US is the big evil, get the hell out of America and go live in the middle east.

that's like saying since i don't like it when my husband farts in bed i should divorce him and move in with a loser.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

that's like saying since i don't like it when my husband farts in bed i should divorce him and move in with a loser.

Ok.. if you think that your husband farting is a similar example fighting the war on terror, than that was a mighty good analogy!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Ok.. if you think that your husband farting is a similar example fighting the war on terror, than that was a mighty good analogy!

my analogy was meant to show that you don't walk away from something that's pretty damn good because you might have one or two issues!!!!

it has nothing to do with patriotism if you question things your govt does.
just ask george washington.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

In my opinion, if you think that the US is the big evil, get the hell out of America and go live in the middle east.

Antitrust,
I'm sure you're kidding. If you really mean this, I've heard it before, a disgraced vice president that was named Spiro Agnew said exactly the same thing.
For you limited take...I live in the US because it is a great nation. I was born here. I have rights to free speech.
The United States is great, our leaders aren't, and neither are you.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Antitrust,
I'm sure you're kidding. If you really mean this, I've heard it before, a disgraced vice president that was named Spiro Agnew said exactly the same thing.
For you limited take...I live in the US because it is a great nation. I was born here. I have rights to free speech.
The United States is great, our leaders aren't, and neither are you.

First off, I am sorry that I support the people who protect me and the country I live in, and second, I am sorry I was happy to see the SOB saddam go.

You have all the free speech rights you want... doesnt mean I have to agree with the words that are typed off your fingers... not even a little bit.