Strong Pretender Excuses Thread

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I'm sorry I didn't just delete this thread the minute I saw the title...

Instead of looking to attack the 6, 9, 11 horses that finish behind the SINGLE winner of these stakes, how about some credit for the performances of those that won?

Chetain emerged today as a real nice horse... Classic Campaign won a thrilling turf stake... And people are looking to create negative attributes towards ones that 'didn't win'...

I don't get it... And I frankly, hate it.

Race fans complain UNENDINGLY about premature retirements, and here you have a handful of horses BACK for their 4 year old seasons and they're immediately decried as useless off single starts. It's ridiculous.

Jazil got back to the races after a 6 month layoff to start a season off an the same injury that ENDED Smarty Jones' career... Maybe you'd prefer he just be sent off to one of Shadwell's stud farms? Strong Contender, and Saint for that matter, have bigger objectives on their itinerary than the Mr. Prospector. And all three trainers of these horses made it very clear what was on their minds going into these races.

Why is any discussion of a loss these days labeled under 'excuses'?... Defeats in racing are far more frequent than wins. There are all kinds of reasons that races go the way they do. What possible complaint would anyone have with the performances of Saint and Greeley behind Chatain today? What complaint would anyone have with Johannesburg Star's performance? Etc... 'Seasons' and 'careers' are bodies of work. Not single snapshots.

And people calling horses "dogs" or "goats" are a positive thing?

[Cajungator26]

Personally, I think it's funny that Sniper started this thread... Sir Greeley didn't finish in the money either.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Personally, I think it's funny that Sniper started this thread... Sir Greeley didn't finish in the money either.

Is second not in the money?

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

it was a very good race and im glad to see it..very exited about this years races..keep it positive people.....

[blackthroatedwind]

Personally I'm very upset about the bad name goats seem to be getting around here.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

And people calling horses "dogs" or "goats" are a positive thing?

No... (You write that as if I endorse calling horses dogs or goats...) But I would say that the trainer of the animal so named in one post the other day, helped address that silliness better than anyone else could have... with his response online and Pink Viper's on track.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Kasept

No... (You write that as if I endorse calling horses dogs or goats...) But I would say that the trainer of the animal so named in one post the other day, helped address that silliness better than anyone else could have... with his response online and Pink Viper's on track.

He definitely did, but I thought it was a rude thing for someone to say when the horse was under the care of a poster....it's rude to say of any horse really. It's one thing to debate the talent of a horse, and with the Derby a few months away I hope we all do just that, but name calling is ridiculous.

[Sightseek]

I should add that I don't think you condone that behavior either, I just felt bad for the guy who had to read that about his horse.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I should add that I don't think you condone that behavior either, I just felt bad for the guy who had to read that about his horse.

I bet Mr. Klanfer didnt feel to bad when PV crossed the line 1st today

[GPK]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Definitely got the last laugh on that. And I'll admit, half the reason I bet Pink Viper today was because of that. I just hope gander got down on that.

He did...and he was kind enough to call me while I was at the OTB and remind me. $5 ex was about the only thing I hit all day..

when they start paying 3 of 4 in pick 4's and 2 of 3 in pick 3's...GPK will be one very rich man..

[GPK]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You and me both man. Twice at Aqueduct and because I am a real degenerate 3 times tonight at meadowlands. Glad Gander had PV because I know he was mentioning it for a few days.

Almost stayed and played The Big M tonight...but after my bet in the 1st (#8 D. Miller was in the bike I think) finished about 7th...I knew it was time for me to get out quickly.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I'm sorry I didn't just delete this thread the minute I saw the title...

Instead of looking to attack the 6, 9, 11 horses that finish behind the SINGLE winner of these stakes, how about some credit for the performances of those that won?

Chetain emerged today as a real nice horse... Classic Campaign won a thrilling turf stake... And people are looking to create negative attributes towards ones that 'didn't win'...

I don't get it... And I frankly, hate it.

Race fans complain UNENDINGLY about premature retirements, and here you have a handful of horses BACK for their 4 year old seasons and they're immediately decried as useless off single starts. It's ridiculous.

Jazil got back to the races after a 6 month layoff to start a season off an the same injury that ENDED Smarty Jones' career... Maybe you'd prefer he just be sent off to one of Shadwell's stud farms? Strong Contender, and Saint for that matter, have bigger objectives on their itinerary than the Mr. Prospector. And all three trainers of these horses made it very clear what was on their minds going into these races.

Why is any discussion of a loss these days labeled under 'excuses'?... Defeats in racing are far more frequent than wins. There are all kinds of reasons that races go the way they do. What possible complaint would anyone have with the performances of Saint and Greeley behind Chatain today? What complaint would anyone have with Johannesburg Star's performance? Etc... 'Seasons' and 'careers' are bodies of work. Not single snapshots.

I'm sorry you took this thread the wrong way and I apologize for posting it. I tried telling everyone before the race that the horse wasn't as great as he was being made out to be, backed it up with facts, and was just told how wrong I was. It wasn't like I just called the horse a pig and didn't give any basis for that opinion. After the race I was headed out to watch the NFL games so figured I would set up this thread so we could have one central place to argue Strong Contender rather than have it contaminate the threads about the race that should have been about the impressive performances in the race. Apparently that was wrong of me. I'll tone down my posting here and only focus on the positives and leave my negative posts for other forums. Although I still don't understand how a thread saying that a horse isn't fast is bad but calling jockeys "gnomes" is OK.

[Getaway]

This thread is completely ridiculous. After one race you people can actually just forget about a horse. I'm not denying the fact that Strong Contender may not be able to compete in this high a level (make no mistake, this field was much more competitive than many grade I's). All of this aside, he is still a very nice horse, and one that I'm sure that anyone would love to own. Every horse can't win every race. Strong Contender finished in the money in every race prior to this one. I don't care what level you're running at, it is still impressive. To tell you the truth, I was very impressed with the way that Sweetnorthernsaint ran. Even though he was third, I truly think he ran against the toughest horses in his career (aside from Bernardini). I am definitely looking for him to move forward from this race, I think he will be a major contender in this year's classics. Sir Greeley on the other hand ran a terrific race, and it looks like we are going to have a great year with him. He gave 6 pounds to the winner, and got beat an inch. What more can you ask for? I'm sure as hell not gunna give up on him.

[SentToStud]

I'm just glad to see some successful 3 yos come back to race at 4.

Not every horse wins every race. In fact every horse does not.

Opinions about which horse is no good or not good enough can be expressed best at the wagering windows.

Doesn't make much sense to denigrate a horse on a message board.

I was glad to see them (SNS, SC) back running as well as seeing Declan's Moon trying to come back as well.

I was also glad to see Kelly's Landing run huge (tho I didn't bet him). 5 yo is the 6F track record holder at Churchill. I wonder how many 6F races have been run at CD. Thousands? Tens of thousands? No one has run as fast there than Kelly's Landing and to see him come back strong yesterday was something special.

[Kasept]

Sniper..

There's no need to apologize for starting the thread or feeling that you shouldn't express critical opinions. In terms of calling jockey's "gnomes" or horses "goats", I can't police and legislate every post, every thread, every minute, every day. As it happens, both of those comments were responded to in a manner that appropriately debunked the poster who made the silly references.

That pair of comments are examples of isolated, individual boorishness. The theme of this thread though is an example of a much larger, and vitally more important trend around the game. For my part, I'm sorry if my response was overly harsh, and I wasn't trying to single you out as a villain. It just hit a chord with me though as it set the responses in a direction that has an undertone all too prevelent in the game, and sports in general these days: the ridiculing of loser(s) as opposed to the complimenting of winner(s).

John Ward made it clear before the race that the Donn and Santa Anita Handicap were his targets for Strong Contender. Mike Trombetta made it clear that the Sunshine Millions Classic was his target for Saint. McLaughlin made it clear that the Gulfstream Park H. or Donn was the target for Jazil. While trainers and connections would love to win every race they enter, conditions and situations preclude that they are going to...

Unfortunately, we live in an era of racing where we don't get to see our horse heroes run as frequently as in generations past, and because of that, we tend to ovedrvalue, and be hyper-critical, of every single perfolrmance because we have so few performances to go on anymore.

The most telling example of this was the hyper-critique overkill of Bernardini post-BC Classic. In a perfect world, we'd get to see Bernardini at least all this year in maybe 2-3 more matchups versus Invasor, Premium Tap and this year's 4 year olds. Only then could we truly determine if Bernardini was a true great or near great or better than average. Instead, he loses by a length to a fabulous and nearly undefeated champion six months his elder, and is decried a "fraud" by many eager to tear down anything that resembles a quality runner.

Because our opportunities to evaluate horses are limited in this era of the abbreviated career, there is an incredible rush to judgement on every single animal from the second they hit they the track. We are so anxious to annoint a "next superstar" that any 2 year old that wins impressively and earns a big figure is instantly set up for criticism and ridicule with any subsequent
"failing".

Not to get into the why's and wherefores of this, but the short-sightedness of the breeding community and lack of leadership within industry management has created a terrible scenario whereby fans have little to grab on to in terms of continuity and sustained adulation of horses. Because racing is a pari-mutuel based enterprise, it elicits strong opinions in its' fan base, and I'm not looking to limit anyone's predilections.

But we have to be appreciative of what we have, and Saturday's Mr. Prospector was a race worthy of appreciation for a variety of reasons. The winner emerged as a serious racehorse and set a track record in an excellent race that saw three quality runners with a chance to win at the finish. While it makes sense to include the fact that Strong Contender was not ready for a competitive effort as part of its' evaluation, I was of the opinion that the more reasonable focus of the post script was the action at the front of the pack.

[Gander]

Glad Gander had PV because I know he was mentioning it for a few days.

Not nearly enough Da Hoss, the day as a whole was awful and the only ticket I cashed is a win bet on PV. I tried to beat the favorite in the last in doubles and didnt have the 7th race so there went my pick 4's. Awful day which should have been a big day. Just disgusting but I am glad Outofthebox won when so many know it alls on here made the horse out to have no chance.

[todko]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Jara took him late. He closed to within 2 lengths and had they went another 1/16th we would be talking about some amazingly bright 4yo campaign ahead of him. Don't kick dirt on him yet....He's got alot to show

He's certainly a better horse than Strong Pretender.

[todko]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

SNS showed up with front wraps for the first time ever today. I figured that was probably a bad sign.

It is a bad sign -- a lot like Bluegrass Cat in the Travers.

Strong Contender may have ongoing issues too. Big horses like Strong Contender are often prone to injury. Look at RHT and Bellamy Road. Well Said is another large horse that showed some promise last year only to be afflicted with constant nagging injuries.

In a full field at a mile traffic can be a huge issue for a big horse -- they get stopped and it takes them too long to get motoring again -- high cruising speed but slow turn of foot.

[todko]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The most telling example of this was the hyper-critique overkill of Bernardini post-BC Classic. In a perfect world, we'd get to see Bernardini at least all this year in maybe 2-3 more matchups versus Invasor, Premium Tap and this year's 4 year olds. Only then could we truly determine if Bernardini was a true great or near great or better than average. Instead, he loses by a length to a fabulous and nearly undefeated champion six months his elder, and is decried a "fraud" by many eager to tear down anything that resembles a quality runner.

I agree for the most part Kasept. With Bernardini however I think the level of hype was appalling enough to deserve some critique. The critique should have really been directed more at the racing press instead of the horse. Beyer is a perfect example -- he cranks superstar figures for a horse that beats weak/injured fields and then when Bernardini loses to a relatively mediocre performance by Invasor -- Beyer instantly changes his tune and says, "Bernardini is no superstar".

Like I said before -- if some of the racing press worked in the financial services industry they would be in jail for fraud. Yeah, I know, it's gambling -- but the betting public (especially the novice) bettors deserve a fair shake from the "experts". Maybe they'd stick around and become horseplayers if so many weren't led astray from the start.

Just my $2 worth.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Sniper..

There's no need to apologize for starting the thread or feeling that you shouldn't express critical opinions. In terms of calling jockey's "gnomes" or horses "goats", I can't police and legislate every post, every thread, every minute, every day. As it happens, both of those comments were responded to in a manner that appropriately debunked the poster who made the silly references.

That pair of comments are examples of isolated, individual boorishness. The theme of this thread though is an example of a much larger, and vitally more important trend around the game. For my part, I'm sorry if my response was overly harsh, and I wasn't trying to single you out as a villain. It just hit a chord with me though as it set the responses in a direction that has an undertone all too prevelent in the game, and sports in general these days: the ridiculing of loser(s) as opposed to the complimenting of winner(s).

John Ward made it clear before the race that the Donn and Santa Anita Handicap were his targets for Strong Contender. Mike Trombetta made it clear that the Sunshine Millions Classic was his target for Saint. McLaughlin made it clear that the Gulfstream Park H. or Donn was the target for Jazil. While trainers and connections would love to win every race they enter, conditions and situations preclude that they are going to...

Unfortunately, we live in an era of racing where we don't get to see our horse heroes run as frequently as in generations past, and because of that, we tend to ovedrvalue, and be hyper-critical, of every single perfolrmance because we have so few performances to go on anymore.

The most telling example of this was the hyper-critique overkill of Bernardini post-BC Classic. In a perfect world, we'd get to see Bernardini at least all this year in maybe 2-3 more matchups versus Invasor, Premium Tap and this year's 4 year olds. Only then could we truly determine if Bernardini was a true great or near great or better than average. Instead, he loses by a length to a fabulous and nearly undefeated champion six months his elder, and is decried a "fraud" by many eager to tear down anything that resembles a quality runner.

Because our opportunities to evaluate horses are limited in this era of the abbreviated career, there is an incredible rush to judgement on every single animal from the second they hit they the track. We are so anxious to annoint a "next superstar" that any 2 year old that wins impressively and earns a big figure is instantly set up for criticism and ridicule with any subsequent
"failing".

Not to get into the why's and wherefores of this, but the short-sightedness of the breeding community and lack of leadership within industry management has created a terrible scenario whereby fans have little to grab on to in terms of continuity and sustained adulation of horses. Because racing is a pari-mutuel based enterprise, it elicits strong opinions in its' fan base, and I'm not looking to limit anyone's predilections.

But we have to be appreciative of what we have, and Saturday's Mr. Prospector was a race worthy of appreciation for a variety of reasons. The winner emerged as a serious racehorse and set a track record in an excellent race that saw three quality runners with a chance to win at the finish. While it makes sense to include the fact that Strong Contender was not ready for a competitive effort as part of its' evaluation, I was of the opinion that the more reasonable focus of the post script was the action at the front of the pack.

This is all so true.

I love everything from reading about bloodlines, learning of great champions and pick 3's and 4's, but most of all I love the horses running. Being this sort of fan isn't the easiest thing on a forum or following the sport due to the failure of management to recognize that there are fans as well as people who bet, own or breed thoroughbreds. The fan is the often forgot element in this because they are not supporting the sport heavily with their betting dollar or ownership, but they are an important part of the community of racing. If the horse isn't retired prematurily, I'm told I can't think my favorite race was the Belmont Stakes. I may have been born in 1978, but it doesn't mean I don't know who Secretariat, Dr. Fager and Buckpasser were and how good they were. The difference is, horses like Jazil, Memorette, Bernardini and Saint Liam ran when I was watching...they bring me out to the track. So I guess what I'm really trying to say is; I understand your message and as usual it's a good one. Be thankful for what we have.