Worst DQ of All Time?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Kitan

Yep, people who appreciate competitive, exciting racing presented by a genuine, non-condescending broadcast crew :-)

You never answered....how can one be against the Maximum Security DQ (where a horse took out multiple runners) but think this was obvious.

I’m genuinely curious about the thought process here.

[Kitan]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

You never answered....how can one be against the Maximum Security DQ (where a horse took out multiple runners) but think this was obvious.

I’m genuinely curious about the thought process here.

Because I primarily follow racing that uses "Category 1" rules, whereby the only questions the stewards have to resolve are: did interference occur, and if so, would horse B have finished ahead of horse A had interference not occurred? Based on this, any preposition that War of Will and/or Long Range Toddy would have finished ahead of Maximum Security is nothing but baseless conjecture. Was the interference suffered by WoW more than what happened at Tampa? Yes. Was it enough to cause a 4.5L losing margin? No. WoW lost at most 0.5-1L in that incident. How can you DQ a horse who was much the best because of an incident which cost the horse a quarter of the losing margin? (yes I know MS was placed behind LRT, which was absurd on its own right as that horse was done and everyone knows it)

The TAM result was a headbob and there is a valid argument that without the interference the 5 would have gotten up. Based on the distance between MS and WoW and the loss of lengths suffered with the interference, I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that WoW (or LRT) would have finished ahead of MS had interference not occurred.

Yes, the rule in the States is different, but I still don't think it warranted a DQ. LRT was finishing nowhere near the top five, and WoW finished 1.25L from the 5th horse, which is more than the 0.5-1L he lost in that incident.

And yes, Category 1 rules work because jockeys actually get proper suspensions instead of slaps on the wrist.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Kitan

Because I primarily follow racing that uses "Category 1" rules, whereby the only questions the stewards have to resolve are: did interference occur, and if so, would horse B have finished ahead of horse A had interference not occurred? Based on this, any preposition that War of Will and/or Long Range Toddy would have finished ahead of Maximum Security is nothing but baseless conjecture. Was the interference suffered by WoW more than what happened at Tampa? Yes. Was it enough to cause a 4.5L losing margin? No. WoW lost at most 0.5-1L in that incident. How can you DQ a horse who was much the best because of an incident which cost the horse a quarter of the losing margin? (yes I know MS was placed behind LRT, which was absurd on its own right as that horse was done and everyone knows it)

The TAM result was a headbob and there is a valid argument that without the interference the 5 would have gotten up. Based on the distance between MS and WoW and the loss of lengths suffered with the interference, I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that WoW (or LRT) would have finished ahead of MS had interference not occurred.

Yes, the rule in the States is different, but I still don't think it warranted a DQ. LRT was finishing nowhere near the top five, and WoW finished 1.25L from the 5th horse, which is more than the 0.5-1L he lost in that incident.

And yes, Category 1 rules work because jockeys actually get proper suspensions instead of slaps on the wrist.

Yeah that sounds real dumb.

There is no way you can say both WOW and LRT were not cost a better placing because of the interference. They weren’t beating MS, but they were absolutely cost a placing.

You’re essentially saying foul whoever you want, at any point of the race as long as the horses you are fouling weren’t going to beat you anyway.

I guess exacta, trifecta and superficial bettors be damned.

I also strongly disagree the 5 was going by the 4. I’m not big on gallop outs, but the 5 never went by the 4 in the gallop out. If there was interference, why did the horse, nor the jockey react?

Originally Posted by Kitan

Because I primarily follow racing that uses "Category 1" rules, whereby the only questions the stewards have to resolve are: did interference occur, and if so, would horse B have finished ahead of horse A had interference not occurred? Based on this, any preposition that War of Will and/or Long Range Toddy would have finished ahead of Maximum Security is nothing but baseless conjecture. Was the interference suffered by WoW more than what happened at Tampa? Yes. Was it enough to cause a 4.5L losing margin? No. WoW lost at most 0.5-1L in that incident. How can you DQ a horse who was much the best because of an incident which cost the horse a quarter of the losing margin? (yes I know MS was placed behind LRT, which was absurd on its own right as that horse was done and everyone knows it)

The TAM result was a headbob and there is a valid argument that without the interference the 5 would have gotten up. Based on the distance between MS and WoW and the loss of lengths suffered with the interference, I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that WoW (or LRT) would have finished ahead of MS had interference not occurred.

Yes, the rule in the States is different, but I still don't think it warranted a DQ. LRT was finishing nowhere near the top five, and WoW finished 1.25L from the 5th horse, which is more than the 0.5-1L he lost in that incident.

And yes, Category 1 rules work because jockeys actually get proper suspensions instead of slaps on the wrist.

The rule reads cost an opportunity of a "better" placing. Not would the horse have finished in front of the one who fouled him. Without the incident could WAR OF WILL have finished in front COUNTRY HOUSE, CODE OF HONOR, TACITUS, IMPROBABLE, GAME WINNER and/or MASTER FENCER? Of course. He was knocked sideways. And of course showed his true unobstructed talent by winning the Preakness. BTW the purse for finishing 5th in the Derby is $90,000.

How can you begin to quantify the amount of damage when getting cross body blocked at the quarter pole of his first ever mile and a quarter race. Just the breath knocked out of him could have cost multiple lengths.

Yours could very well be the most ridiculous, incorrect post I've ever read on any forum.

Complete nonsense!

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

...
...Yours could very well be the most ridiculous, incorrect post I've ever read on any forum.
...

Really? That statement may be the most extreme exaggeration since someone wrote "Worst DQ of All Time?"

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Really? That statement may be the most extreme exaggeration since someone wrote "Worst DQ of All Time?"

LMAO...still salty, huh?

Good

[Kitan]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Really? That statement may be the most extreme exaggeration since someone wrote "Worst DQ of All Time?"

The current state of petulance on this forum is absurd. Apparently someone having a different opinion is not acceptable, never mind that also being the opinion of every other major jurisdiction in the world.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kitan

The current state of petulance on this forum is absurd. Apparently someone having a different opinion is not acceptable, never mind that also being the opinion of every other major jurisdiction in the world.

Your lack of self awareness is charming

[Kitan]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Your lack of self awareness is charming

I was always taught to treat others how they treat you :-)

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Your lack of self awareness is charming

You were right about those that post about Hong Kong on boards. It’s pretty funny actually.

[Kitan]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

The rule reads cost an opportunity of a "better" placing. Not would the horse have finished in front of the one who fouled him. Without the incident could WAR OF WILL have finished in front COUNTRY HOUSE, CODE OF HONOR, TACITUS, IMPROBABLE, GAME WINNER and/or MASTER FENCER? Of course. He was knocked sideways. And of course showed his true unobstructed talent by winning the Preakness. BTW the purse for finishing 5th in the Derby is $90,000.

Apparently you decided to skip over the part where I mentioned IMO neither of these horses were finishing in the top five (i.e., purse money slots). If the rule is written so as to DQ MS because LRT finished 17th instead of 16th, that is the most nonsensical rule I've ever heard of.

MS would not have come down anywhere other than in North America. You can find other jurisdiction's opinions of the matter if you look for it.

[theguarantee]

Originally Posted by Kitan

Based on this, any preposition that War of Will and/or Long Range Toddy would have finished ahead of Maximum Security is nothing but baseless conjecture.

First off full disclosure I would’ve made a pretty big score of War of Will won the Derby. I also would’ve made a significantly less (4 figure instead of 5) score had Max Security not been taken down. Much as I was not a fan of his I felt you had to use defensively given the trainer.

Point I want to make though...and I realize this thread has been somewhat heated, I swear I’m not trying to be an ass...how exactly is it “baseless conjecture” that WoW could not have finished ahead of Max Security in the derby when sawed off turning for home making what sure seemed like a potential winning move...he then came back to win the Preakness two weeks later and while maybe that wasn’t the best field ever he did beat improbable...

At any rate, my point is, the baseless conjecture seems to be on your part...the conjecture from that Derby is that War of Will wouldn’t have won based on what we will never be able to find out. You sir, in my opinion, are the one making a baseless conjecture...

[Kitan]

Originally Posted by theguarantee

Point I want to make though...and I realize this thread has been somewhat heated, I swear I’m not trying to be an ass...how exactly is it “baseless conjecture” that WoW could not have finished ahead of Max Security in the derby when sawed off turning for home making what sure seemed like a potential winning move...he then came back to win the Preakness two weeks later and while maybe that wasn’t the best field ever he did beat improbable...

Code of Honor made "what sure seemed like a potential winning move", and hit a brick wall... He won two G1s at 10f as a 3yo. Maybe if he suffered interference he would have won the Derby?

Originally Posted by theguarantee

At any rate, my point is, the baseless conjecture seems to be on your part...the conjecture from that Derby is that War of Will wouldn’t have won based on what we will never be able to find out. You sir, in my opinion, are the one making a baseless conjecture...

This is the whole point. There is literally zero hard, factual evidence that WoW would have finished ahead of MS. All arguments are based solely on guesses, "could haves", or "look what he did next start". How can that be used to make such crucial decisions? And the result of that crucial decision was that the best horse in the race was placed 17th, the new "winner" was far from the best horse in the race, and the "potential" winner was placed 7th. Does anyone actually benefit from such decisions? In the TAM race, the horse got fouled just before the wire and literally lost on a bob. How anyone can argue that is the worst DQ ever but say the MS DQ was so blatantly obvious is beyond me.

By the way, everyone is so engrossed with the interference that no one ever seems to talk about how Gaffalione essentially stopped riding the horse in the last 40 yards with the horse in 4th place...

[Dahoss]

Ummmm....your whole argument about War of Will not beating Maximum Security had he not been fouled is also a guess.

Who knows what would have happened. All we know for sure is Maximum Security fouled no less than 3, maybe more horses. Any opinion on where those horses would have finished or if they would have beaten the horse that fouled them is a guess.

Appears as though guessing is okay if you and the rest of the important people around the world in racing agree. I’m just glad you are engaging us common folk.

[moses]

Originally Posted by Kitan

Code of Honor made "what sure seemed like a potential winning move", and hit a brick wall... He won two G1s at 10f as a 3yo. Maybe if he suffered interference he would have won the Derby?



This is the whole point. There is literally zero hard, factual evidence that WoW would have finished ahead of MS. All arguments are based solely on guesses, "could haves", or "look what he did next start". How can that be used to make such crucial decisions? And the result of that crucial decision was that the best horse in the race was placed 17th, the new "winner" was far from the best horse in the race, and the "potential" winner was placed 7th. Does anyone actually benefit from such decisions? In the TAM race, the horse got fouled just before the wire and literally lost on a bob. How anyone can argue that is the worst DQ ever but say the MS DQ was so blatantly obvious is beyond me.

By the way, everyone is so engrossed with the interference that no one ever seems to talk about how Gaffalione essentially stopped riding the horse in the last 40 yards with the horse in 4th place...

Code of Honor arguably was also fouled while making that move. I'm not sure I ever got a great angle on it but he had a head full of steam, Maximum Security came back inside and may have impeded him. It was moot because Maximum Security so clearly interfered War of Will that no one ever really paid much attention to it.

As for Gaffalione's ride, I'd have to go back. I didn't notice. But the horse was also coming off a possible injury in the Louisiana Derby so if he thought that he needed to ease the horse then I'm not going to second guess him.

[Kitan]

Exact same thing as the TAM race happened today at the premier track in Ireland (Curragh). Can see it here around the 5:20 mark (head-on shown after the photo finish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFHpv9_5bpY&t=5m20s

Horse with the green silks bumped the outside horse (in the pink), who had all the momentum, right before the wire and holds on in a bob. Horse is DQ'ed, as was done in Tampa, even in a jurisdiction where DQs are rare. Maybe I'm not such a fool after all

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Kitan

Exact same thing as the TAM race happened today at the premier track in Ireland (Curragh). Can see it here around the 5:20 mark (head-on shown after the photo finish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFHpv9_5bpY&t=5m20s

Horse with the green silks bumped the outside horse (in the pink), who had all the momentum, right before the wire and holds on in a bob. Horse is DQ'ed, as was done in Tampa, even in a jurisdiction where DQs are rare. Maybe I'm not such a fool after all

I don’t know if fool is the right word. Massive douchebag...sure. But not a fool.