Class C Positive Reported on Oaks Day

[Dahoss]

I refuse to link to anything Joe Drape writes but he is reporting that two people close to the situation are saying it was Gamine....again. If true, not sure what to say. Why is it so hard to follow the rules?

Here is the story from TDN

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.co...4D5V6g.twitter

[cakes44]

Gamine is a damn junkie!

[parsixfarms]

It is absolutely incredible how few members of the racing media have even acknowledged this story.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

It is absolutely incredible how few members of the racing media have even acknowledged this story.

Unfortunately I don’t think many even care.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Unfortunately I don’t think many even care.

Probably true.

What they do always seem to care about is that Drape is the one "breaking" these stories. Don't they realize that their silence/complicity on these issues is the cause of Drape being the messenger of these inconvenient facts.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

It is absolutely incredible how few members of the racing media have even acknowledged this story.

I think that's because of how few people care enough about it to read it. The article says that she had 27 picograms. A picogram is one trillionth of a gram. That's .000000000001 of a gram of substance. Who really cares? If this was reported after her Acorn or Test wins, it might, MIGHT get a little more of a reaction but I doubt it. That they say this violation occurred in a loss, again, who really cares? I don't think any reasonable person believe that small amount affected her performance. I understand that the flip side of that argument is that if it doesn't do anything, why do it? I don't believe that it was intentional. Not with that miniscule amount. I think these two comments from Baffert's attorney make perfect sense:

"Importantly, the veterinarian followed established medical and regulatory guidelines in administering the medication. The withdrawal guidelines published by the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission recommend that the medication not be given within 14 days of a race. In this instance, as an additional layer of protection, Gamine’s veterinarian last treated her with betamethasone 18 days before the Oaks."

And

"Trainers and veterinarians must be able to rely on guidelines given them by racing officials. If they are told by regulators that a medication will clear a horses system in 14 days, they must be able to rely on that information.”

[Dahoss]

Somehow all of the other trainers on both days were able to be clean. But Baffert wasn’t again. Intentional or not...isn’t it time the face of the sport cleans up a little?

How many positives are enough?

The problem is that people don’t care. That’s why he keeps pushing the envelope as much as possible. The rules are in place for a reason.

Think about how little you have to care about rules to have two horses DQ’d on Arkansas Derby Day and then have one of those horses also have an overage on Oaks Day....in the Oaks.

Of course his attorney blamed someone else. What was he going to say? My client has never cared about rules, still doesn’t and no one cares so he’s going to keep doing it? That would’ve read well...but at least it would’ve been the truth.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think that's because of how few people care enough about it to read it. The article says that she had 27 picograms. A picogram is one trillionth of a gram. That's .000000000001 of a gram of substance. Who really cares? If this was reported after her Acorn or Test wins, it might, MIGHT get a little more of a reaction but I doubt it. That they say this violation occurred in a loss, again, who really cares? I don't think any reasonable person believe that small amount affected her performance. I understand that the flip side of that argument is that if it doesn't do anything, why do it? I don't believe that it was intentional. Not with that miniscule amount.

The problem here is not the amount of the overage of a medication which is, according to its veterinary description, a "potent" NSAID (hence its 14-day withdrawal time as opposed to a Bute or Banamine), but the fact that within the past 18 months, arguably the top trainer in the country has had medication "mistakes" occur with odds-on favorites in such high-profile races as the Santa Anita Derby, Arkansas Derby and now the Kentucky Oaks. I am not aware of any other trainer having a positive in a Grade I race during that time frame.

As Dahoss said, why is this such a recurrent problem for this barn? I have had many times where we've had to pass a race because one of our trainers (all with far less resources than Baffert) was concerned that a horse was treated too close to a race to risk a medication positive, so you'd think the top barn in the country would be able to avoid these issues.

As someone who represents professionals in licensing matters before the State of New York, professional misconduct that could lead to far more serious suspensions or loss of license in other occupations is defined as gross negligence on one occasion or simple negligence on more than one occasion. Even assuming that Baffert is not intentionally juicing (a proposition of which there is considerable debate), he has been negligent in the operation of his barn on more than a dozen occasions. Should he continue to have a license given that record?

And let's keep in mind that this positive comes on the heels of a CHRB rule change to curb the use of Thyroxine in horses and a report that more than half of SoCal's prescriptions for the medication came from two barns. What is the likelihood that Baffert is one of those two barns, despite the fact that his indiscriminate use of Thyroxine was reportedly linked to the seven horses that died suddenly under his care back in 2013?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

The article says that she had 27 picograms. A picogram is one trillionth of a gram. That's .000000000001 of a gram of substance. I don't think any reasonable person believe that small amount affected her performance.

The 27 picograms is not an absolute amount, but rather a concentration (i.e. 27 pg/mL) measured in a single body fluid/compartment. There was much more than 27 picograms of the substance in the horse at the time of sampling.

Furthermore, the concentration of a substance in one body fluid does not necessarily reflect the substance's concentration or its physiological effect in another compartment--so one cannot state that there was no drug effect in one compartment based on the concentration in another.

"Importantly, the veterinarian followed established medical and regulatory guidelines in administering the medication. The withdrawal guidelines published by the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission recommend that the medication not be given within 14 days of a race."

This is incorrect. The guidelines (http://khrc.ky.gov/new_docs.aspx?cat...=30#details242) state that it is a violation if the medication is given within 14 days of a race. The 14 days is not listed as a recommended withdrawal time, it notes it as a required "stand down period".

"Trainers and veterinarians must be able to rely on guidelines given them by racing officials. If they are told by regulators that a medication will clear a horses system in 14 days, they must be able to rely on that information.”

The guidelines and thresholds are based on specific dosing. If the horse was treated with the same medication but in a different way from how the guidelines were developed then the connections need to consider that when deciding on when to treat.

In this case, it looks like they attempted to do this but came up short (or high as it were).

[King Glorious]

I spoke incorrectly when I said it wasn't intentional. You guys are correct in pointing out how it's the same guy getting caught multiple times on days when nobody else is getting caught. So it's obvious that he pushes the envelope. I should have said that I don't feel like he's trying to cheat but that he's trying to walk right up to the line and occasionally, he steps over it. What it makes me think of is how many times he comes right up to the line, within inches (or picograms) of crossing it but gets away with it and ends up winning a major race. His successes keep owners sending their horses to him. I mean just look at Maximum Security, for example. They weren't interested in going to someone with a reputation for being clean. They wanted one that wouldn't get caught. His record will keep them coming and the risks are worth the reward when the penalties are so light. Honestly, why should he stop doing what he's doing?

You guys ask and answer your own questions. He obviously doesn't care but I wouldn't say he's negligent because that implies he's not aware. I think he's completely aware and complicit.

[Dahoss]

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/t...ffert-trainee/

Poor guy just can’t catch a break.

When is enough...enough?

[moses]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/t...ffert-trainee/

Poor guy just can’t catch a break.

When is enough...enough?

With this many positive drugs tests reported, there is only one logical conclusion — there is a vast conspiracy to bring him down due to his incredible success.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/t...ffert-trainee/

Poor guy just can’t catch a break.

When is enough...enough?

Lol. Yeah, I have nothing.

[parsixfarms]

I thought the Breeders Cup previously adopted a rule that a trainer found to have committed certain medication violations during a calendar year could not compete at the event. At this point, wouldn’t everyone be better served if Baffert and his horses were not allowed to participate in this year’s event?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I thought the Breeders Cup previously adopted a rule that a trainer found to have committed certain medication violations during a calendar year could not compete at the event. At this point, wouldn’t everyone be better served if Baffert and his horses were not allowed to participate in this year’s event?

I don't think anyone would be better served. The quality of the races would suffer because he's got some good horses. I understand the thinking and I won't even try to defend Baffert but if I'm being honest, I don't really care about the positive tests and I don't think many fans do either. Judging by the light penalties and allowing it to keep happening, I don't think the people that run the sport really care either. Baffert is the face of the sport like it or not and not having the star person there would not help the sport at all I don't think.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I thought the Breeders Cup previously adopted a rule that a trainer found to have committed certain medication violations during a calendar year could not compete at the event.

There is a "Convicted Trainers Rule" but the relevant violation(s) has to be final (i.e., not still on appeal).

In addition, the violation has to be of a certain severity (Class 1A or B, Class 2A). I don't think any of these recent Baffert positives qualify (lidocaine is Class 2B).

See page 92:

https://members.breederscup.com/docu...nships/HIG.PDF

[moses]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't think anyone would be better served. The quality of the races would suffer because he's got some good horses. I understand the thinking and I won't even try to defend Baffert but if I'm being honest, I don't really care about the positive tests and I don't think many fans do either. Judging by the light penalties and allowing it to keep happening, I don't think the people that run the sport really care either. Baffert is the face of the sport like it or not and not having the star person there would not help the sport at all I don't think.

I don't see how you can postulate that "many fans" don't care about the positive tests. Most gamblers that I know are extremely frustrated at trying to handicap races while also factoring in potential drug cheats. Most casual fans that I know are absolutely appalled at the stuff that came out about Servis/Navarro.

You may be right that not enough people care, or perhaps the right people don't care...but I'm not sure why Baffert's presence is a necessity. There are plenty of big race days at NYRA or Gulfstream or Churchill/Keeneland that have no Baffert horses or very few.

Do Baffert's horses make the races more competitive? Maybe. I don't know. Personally, I think his horses are almost always overbet and if they win provide very little value. I guess it can be good if you're against one of his overbet horses and can beat them.

[goodcopy]

Originally Posted by moses

I don't see how you can postulate that "many fans" don't care about the positive tests. Most gamblers that I know are extremely frustrated at trying to handicap races while also factoring in potential drug cheats. Most casual fans that I know are absolutely appalled at the stuff that came out about Servis/Navarro.

You may be right that not enough people care, or perhaps the right people don't care...but I'm not sure why Baffert's presence is a necessity. There are plenty of big race days at NYRA or Gulfstream or Churchill/Keeneland that have no Baffert horses or very few.

Do Baffert's horses make the races more competitive? Maybe. I don't know. Personally, I think his horses are almost always overbet and if they win provide very little value. I guess it can be good if you're against one of his overbet horses and can beat them.

Bobby B is a great trainer and stable manager but when it comes down to why he is being treated different than other good trainers all comes down to Baffert's money interest and owners

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by moses

I don't see how you can postulate that "many fans" don't care about the positive tests. Most gamblers that I know are extremely frustrated at trying to handicap races while also factoring in potential drug cheats. Most casual fans that I know are absolutely appalled at the stuff that came out about Servis/Navarro.

You may be right that not enough people care, or perhaps the right people don't care...but I'm not sure why Baffert's presence is a necessity. There are plenty of big race days at NYRA or Gulfstream or Churchill/Keeneland that have no Baffert horses or very few.

Do Baffert's horses make the races more competitive? Maybe. I don't know. Personally, I think his horses are almost always overbet and if they win provide very little value. I guess it can be good if you're against one of his overbet horses and can beat them.

Different sport but in baseball, the Astros manager that was fired and suspended for a year because of cheating, was hired immediately after his suspension was lifted. Alex Rodriguez was suspended for drug use and now he’s ESPN’s lead baseball analyst. Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire were hired as coaches by teams. Josh Gordon in football gets chance after chance. Antonio Brown has pending assault charges against him and he just got signed. The Cowboys have a couple of guys that have suspended for drugs. There’s a coach who was fined and suspended for putting a bounty out on opposing players and paid bonuses to his guys if they could hurt them and he’s still working.

I point these out as examples that fans don’t really care. As long as they are entertained, that’s all they care about. Barry Bonds could stand at home plate, call time out, stick a needle in his arm right there.....I just want to see a 600 foot home run.

[herkhorse]

"2020 has been a difficult year for everyone."

poor guy is really suffering

and now he is humble., time to "Raise the bar" LMAO