Do Fans Deserve Any Consideration?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

So just neglect them and continue to do business as usual?

It’s a bit different in other sports. The Kawhi stuff is ridiculous but if at the end of the year they win the championship...wasn’t it worth it?

In racing, no one was neglected by two horses running in the most appropriate race last weekend. Now, if we go back to Zenyatta, I think her owners did the sport a disservice by continually finding the easiest spot possible (most of the time) but at the end of the day hard to argue with the results.

I didnt get Bricks running in the Classic at all and didn’t think Midnight Bisou should have either.

[blackthroatedwind]

That idiot who trains Bricks and Mortar laughed when I told him about this discussion and said the horse can't stand up on the dirt.

But, what does he know.

[goodcopy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

That idiot who trains Bricks and Mortar laughed when I told him about this discussion and said the horse can't stand up on the dirt.

But, what does he know.

Ask him if he thinks Uni is the best horse in his barn

[Konk]

We all want something, this horse to run in that race, posters to use paragraphs....we all have to suffer a little for good of it all.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It’s a bit different in other sports. The Kawhi stuff is ridiculous but if at the end of the year they win the championship...wasn’t it worth it?

In racing, no one was neglected by two horses running in the most appropriate race last weekend. Now, if we go back to Zenyatta, I think her owners did the sport a disservice by continually finding the easiest spot possible (most of the time) but at the end of the day hard to argue with the results.

I didnt get Bricks running in the Classic at all and didn’t think Midnight Bisou should have either.

Thank you. I’m curious to know why you feel it was different with Zenyatra? If running in the most appropriate or most logical spot is all that matters, how do you fault her owners but are ok with others? Is it because you believe she was the best horse and needed to race against the best and you don’t think a horse like Midnight Bisou needed to run against the best because she wasn’t in that class? This year kind of reminded me of 2011 with Havre de Grace. She had already pretty much locked up her division heading into the BC and her owner threw her into the Classic. She ran fourth but still won HOY.

Perhaps I’m just way off. But when I think of some of the top female runners of the entire time I’ve watched racing, names like Personal Ensign, Winning Colors, Zenyatta, Rachel Alexandra, Rags to Riches, Enable, Miesque, and Goldikova come to mind and it’s not just because of how good they were but partly because their owners have them the chance to create their signature moments by trying something different.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

his year kind of reminded me of 2011 with Havre de Grace. She had already pretty much locked up her division heading into the BC and her owner threw her into the Classic. She ran fourth but still won HOY.

Havre de Grace wasn't tossed into the Classic. She had already ran against--and defeated--males in the Woodward. After getting beat by division rival Blind Luck to ruin a run at a perfect season, the connections of Havre de Grace felt they needed to be aggressive and targeted both the Woodward and the Classic.

Blind Luck had won 3 straight across the country and knocked off not only Havre de Grace but also defending Distaff champ Unrivaled Belle. She was very much in the frame for divisional honors but ultimately imploded before the BC.

Perhaps I’m just way off. But when I think of some of the top female runners of the entire time I’ve watched racing, names like Personal Ensign, Winning Colors, Zenyatta, Rachel Alexandra, Rags to Riches, Enable, Miesque, and Goldikova come to mind and it’s not just because of how good they were but partly because their owners have them the chance to create their signature moments by trying something different.

For what its worth, Midnight Bisou is targeting races against males next year (Saudi Cup, Dubai World Cup).

European fillies and mares routinely face males, as you well know. Not sure that's doing something different.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Havre de Grace wasn't tossed into the Classic. She had already ran against--and defeated--males in the Woodward. After getting beat by division rival Blind Luck to ruin a run at a perfect season, the connections of Havre de Grace felt they needed to be aggressive and targeted both the Woodward and the Classic.

Blind Luck had won 3 straight across the country and knocked off not only Havre de Grace but also defending Distaff champ Unrivaled Belle. She was very much in the frame for divisional honors but ultimately imploded before the BC.


For what its worth, Midnight Bisou is targeting races against males next year (Saudi Cup, Dubai World Cup).

European fillies and mares routinely face males, as you well know. Not sure that's doing something different.

Yes, Blind Luck fell apart and I thought that wrapped up the division for Havre de Grace with her win in the Woodward. They could have chosen to take on Royal Delta again in the Distaff but instead chose the Classic. I’m looking back, it was kind of like the scenario you talked about earlier where a horse ducks their tougher competition for the supposedly tougher race.

When I say try something different, I mean step out of the traditional norms for American horsemen. All over the world, females face males throughout the year. I know a big part of that is due to purse disparities but it still happens. I also like how their sprint races during the second half of the year are open to horses age two and up. It’s not the norm but it’s also not unheard of to see 2yos compete in and win some of the major stakes in Europe.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Yes, Blind Luck fell apart and I thought that wrapped up the division for Havre de Grace with her win in the Woodward. They could have chosen to take on Royal Delta again in the Distaff but instead chose the Classic. I’m looking back, it was kind of like the scenario you talked about earlier where a horse ducks their tougher competition for the supposedly tougher race.

Doubt they were ducking in that specific case. Havre de Grace had just blasted the 3yo Royal Delta to the tune of 8 lengths in the Beldame a month earlier.

When I say try something different, I mean step out of the traditional norms for American horsemen. All over the world, females face males throughout the year. I know a big part of that is due to purse disparities but it still happens. I also like how their sprint races during the second half of the year are open to horses age two and up. It’s not the norm but it’s also not unheard of to see 2yos compete in and win some of the major stakes in Europe.

American racing as a whole tends to forego its status as a sport and instead focuses on the commercial aspects of the industry.

Why see who the best distaffer is when we can have 2 or 3 horses with near unbeaten records, triple digit speed figures, and undifferentiated black-type? Not only do I get to sell my mare at the end of her career for 6-figures but nowadays I can sell chunks of her along the way to Winstar, Madaket, China Horse Club, etc. Using top class races as acid tests to prove who is truly at the top of the heap puts all that in jeopardy.

In that respect, breaking from the norm--like running against males--will only happen in carefully tailored scenarios where the possibility of success is at a premium.

I find it interesting that Midnight Bisou was pulled from the sale to race in 2020. Sounds like a sporting gesture. However, my guess is that after she gets buried in the Saudi Cup she will quickly retire. I would also hazard a guess that the main reason she is staying in training is not for the benefit of the fans, but rather from the fear that had someone purchased the filly at the FT sale, they would turn around and keep her in training and take a run at all those rich races (Pegasus, Saudi Cup, DWC) that are just over the horizon.

In short, another business decision.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Thank you. I’m curious to know why you feel it was different with Zenyatra? If running in the most appropriate or most logical spot is all that matters, how do you fault her owners but are ok with others? Is it because you believe she was the best horse and needed to race against the best and you don’t think a horse like Midnight Bisou needed to run against the best because she wasn’t in that class? This year kind of reminded me of 2011 with Havre de Grace. She had already pretty much locked up her division heading into the BC and her owner threw her into the Classic. She ran fourth but still won HOY.

Perhaps I’m just way off. But when I think of some of the top female runners of the entire time I’ve watched racing, names like Personal Ensign, Winning Colors, Zenyatta, Rachel Alexandra, Rags to Riches, Enable, Miesque, and Goldikova come to mind and it’s not just because of how good they were but partly because their owners have them the chance to create their signature moments by trying something different.

I didn’t say it’s all that matters. What you were proposing with Bricks was a surface change. A surface he had never run before. The Turf was a distance he had never run before.

Zenyatta had dominated on synthetic and essentially followed the same schedule two years in a row. She had opportunities to run at home, against males on the surface she relished and at distances she had won at.

I don’t think Midnight Bisou is anywhere near that class....or the class of the horses you mentioned. She’s a very good horse. She’s a very good horse who has come along at a time when the Distaff ranks are so-so.

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It’s a bit different in other sports. The Kawhi stuff is ridiculous but if at the end of the year they win the championship...wasn’t it worth it?

In racing, no one was neglected by two horses running in the most appropriate race last weekend. Now, if we go back to Zenyatta, I think her owners did the sport a disservice by continually finding the easiest spot possible (most of the time) but at the end of the day hard to argue with the results.

I didnt get Bricks running in the Classic at all and didn’t think Midnight Bisou should have either.

Yeah Zenyatta took all those easy spots in those 13 Grade I Stakes she won. Which were the easy spots the 4 grade II wins. Ran twice in The Classic . Stop it.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Yeah Zenyatta took all those easy spots in those 13 Grade I Stakes she won. Which were the easy spots the 4 grade II wins. Ran twice in The Classic . Stop it.

Zenyatta skipped 2-3 renewals each of the Big Cap, Hollywood Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic. Never mind softer targets like the Californian or Oaklawn Handicap.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Yeah Zenyatta took all those easy spots in those 13 Grade I Stakes she won. Which were the easy spots the 4 grade II wins. Ran twice in The Classic . Stop it.

I know reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit (what exactly is your strong suit?) but I said most of the time. Kudos to them for running in the Classic twice. I think her results in those races proves she could and should have been competing with the boys more often....like Rachel did.