Lukas down to 40 horses

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Where were you guys a few months ago when I was having this same discussion? I could have used some back up then.

i'm telling you dahoss, rupe and i have been on opposite sides of this discussion numerous times. nowadays most times i just leave it. he knows what i want, and i know he has failed to produce....

dwl was/is reviled for being so successful. it's drifted away from him for the most part, now many gleefully attack his former pupil, todd pletcher. he's the top dog now, so it's his turn.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

dwl was/is reviled for being so successful. it's drifted away from him for the most part, now many gleefully attack his former pupil, todd pletcher. he's the top dog now, so it's his turn.

I'm not sure I would agree with that. Overall it seems that Pletcher is beloved on message boards and his defenders well outnumber his detracters. Do you honestly disagree with that?

Maybe I'm wrong.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm not sure I would agree with that. Overall it seems that Pletcher is beloved on message boards and his defenders well outnumber his detracters. Do you honestly disagree with that?

Maybe I'm wrong.

I would agree with you. I think there is a very different dynamic as to the fanfare, popularity, etc., but again, I would agree with you.

Eric

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm not sure I would agree with that. Overall it seems that Pletcher is beloved on message boards and his defenders well outnumber his detracters. Do you honestly disagree with that?

Maybe I'm wrong.

just seems to me that pletcher catches a lot of grief over not having yet won a classic, and days such as his 0-17 in the bcc this year. also see a lot of posts suggesting he isn't totally above board in his training tactics from many. he's achieved a lot of success in a relatively short time, and i feel that will continue in the years to come--and that the amount of detractors will rise with the purse money!! seems everyone enjoys a success--until that guy gets 'too' successful.
look at jerry bailey--he got a ton of grief the last few years, and everyone speculated who would take his place due to his retirement. note who's #1 in the standings, and #1 in the amount of threads started on this board (one example) bashing mr gomez's every awkward move.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

just seems to me that pletcher catches a lot of grief over not having yet won a classic, and days such as his 0-17 in the bcc this year. also see a lot of posts suggesting he isn't totally above board in his training tactics from many. he's achieved a lot of success in a relatively short time, and i feel that will continue in the years to come--and that the amount of detractors will rise with the purse money!! seems everyone enjoys a success--until that guy gets 'too' successful.
look at jerry bailey--he got a ton of grief the last few years, and everyone speculated who would take his place due to his retirement. note who's #1 in the standings, and #1 in the amount of threads started on this board (one example) bashing mr gomez's every awkward move.

I guess I can see your point but he seems to have more defenders than detracters.

Personally I think there is some legitimacy to knocking his TC performance in that he not only gets an enormous amount of well bred and high priced young horses but has also won an abundance of 2YO races in the past and it is somewhat baffling how poorly his horses have progressed. On the other hand, he has only been on his own for 11 seasons, and really only a strong factor for five or six, so it's hard to be TOO critical. It's hardly as though he has been anything close to a failure.

As for the BC failure, well to me he is a trainer who points for the whole year, unlike a lot of people who do seem to race with the BC too much in mind. I would rather have Pletcher's resume of success in stakes races throughout the season than one BC win. Perhaps someone COULD say he squeezes the lemon dry, so to speak, before the BC but he certainly wins a LOT of big races while doing that. He gets a lot of good horses....but he does win a lot of races. Does he underperform? Hard to say but on the surface it's hard to say he does.

My criticisms are different, and not even necessarily about his training, but more about the damage to the game of one trainer controlling too many horses. Plus, I don't like the list of horses that have flashed brilliance only to fizzle out way too quickly. He seems to train for the moment rather than the long haul. On the other hand, who am I to tell someone he is doing it wrong when every owner on Earth seems to want to give him horses.

Let's face it, it's hard to not be somewhat cynical about the game these days, and anyone achieving huge success falls under suspicion. Is it always fair? Absolutely not. However, when a trainer faces drug related suspensions it doesn't exactly bolster any claims of purity.

[ELA]

Andy, 11 seasons? I know he had a couple of horses on his own and all, but when exactly was it that he opened a public stable? 1998? 1999?

I agree with you. There is legitimacy to the TC performance, results, etc. The numbers are the numbers. I don't play the game at that level of course, but I have friends and clients who do. Perhaps I am wrong, but the people I know who play at that level care more about getting to the big dance than they do about contributing to winning a training title. Sure, grade 1's are important of course and the proof is in the big pudding. How long before his barn hits $30 million in earnings? Big numbers there.

The BC is also enigmatic IMO. I mean Bobby Frankel -- like him or not, personally, professionally, etc. -- produces and gets results. The guy is a great horseman in my opinion. He doesn't get the monster purchases, yearlings, 2 year olds, etc. that say a Pletcher gets. He has a different type of operation. But he produces. Now, a few years ago -- he was what, 0 for 30 something in the BC? And, I think his first victory was with a horse he owned -- wasn't it?

I don't know what his 0 for 30 something records means exactly, but does that take away from his accomplishments? I don't think so. I am sure some do however. I tend to look beyond the stats and #'s.

Eric

[ELA]

Yeah, now that you mention it, I vaguely remember that as well. Was he full blown on his own then and operating a public stable? If so, then you guys got it -- 11. I think I remember he had a couple for JJ or a family friend.

Funny thing how you remember oh so well a nice horse you hit huh? LOL.

Eric

[blackthroatedwind]

1996 was definitely his first year on his own. It was my last full winter at Gulfstream and it's when I spoke to him quite often.

[ELA]

Got it. Thanks.

So, 1996 was your last full winter at Gulfstream huh Andy? There is no doubt our paths crossed. We both might have been a bit preoccupied or inebriated to realize it. LOL.

Eric

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I guess I can see your point but he seems to have more defenders than detracters.

Personally I think there is some legitimacy to knocking his TC performance in that he not only gets an enormous amount of well bred and high priced young horses but has also won an abundance of 2YO races in the past and it is somewhat baffling how poorly his horses have progressed. On the other hand, he has only been on his own for 11 seasons, and really only a strong factor for five or six, so it's hard to be TOO critical. It's hardly as though he has been anything close to a failure.

As for the BC failure, well to me he is a trainer who points for the whole year, unlike a lot of people who do seem to race with the BC too much in mind. I would rather have Pletcher's resume of success in stakes races throughout the season than one BC win. Perhaps someone COULD say he squeezes the lemon dry, so to speak, before the BC but he certainly wins a LOT of big races while doing that. He gets a lot of good horses....but he does win a lot of races. Does he underperform? Hard to say but on the surface it's hard to say he does.

My criticisms are different, and not even necessarily about his training, but more about the damage to the game of one trainer controlling too many horses. Plus, I don't like the list of horses that have flashed brilliance only to fizzle out way too quickly. He seems to train for the moment rather than the long haul. On the other hand, who am I to tell someone he is doing it wrong when every owner on Earth seems to want to give him horses.

Let's face it, it's hard to not be somewhat cynical about the game these days, and anyone achieving huge success falls under suspicion. Is it always fair? Absolutely not. However, when a trainer faces drug related suspensions it doesn't exactly bolster any claims of purity.

at this point i don't think pletcher takes too much heat, but he's still got a long career ahead of him...i don't think he will ever get as much criticism as lukas because of the differences in personality. lukas has always been viewed as ****y and smug, certainly not things i've ever seen anyone say about pletcher.
as for the drug violations--like the writer wrote the other day, what do the top three trainers have in common? they're all suspended due to drug violations. and then pletcher gets to serve his suspension at the slowest time of the year. this tiger has no teeth! the drug policies in racing need work. they need to set a workable standard, but then they need to have the right policies in place, and correct punishments that fit the bill and are tough enough that a trainer would truly hesitate before attempting to get around the system ever again. i feel they got asmussens attention. but this suspension for pletcher is probably going to be considered no more than a nuisance or minor inconvenience for him.

[cakes44]

I don't need a trainer's license to know that every time I bet one of his horses(or even just watch), the horse runs like a scalded dog either on the lead or pressing for most of the race, then folds up like a cheap suit at the quarter pole. His horses are rarely in the shape they need to be in order to win whatever races they are entered, and almost none of them know how to relax, whether they are trained that way, or the jockey is instructed that way by DWL.

I got into a group who owned part of a Lukas horse three years ago and we had absolutely no problem finding insurance for the horse. There is much more that goes into insuring a horse than just who the trainer is. I am neutral on Lukas. He has done some good for the sport and he has done some bad for the sport.

When a big time owner buys a horse and sends it to Lukas, they expect the horse to compete at the top. That is why you see so many of his horses in over their head. I think it is a combination of Lukas and the owner's expectations.

As far as breakdowns....well you can make numbers say what you want. The more horses you have in training the more that are going to breakdown. You also have to keep in mind that Lukas was the main trainer for Overbrooke who race offspring of Storm Cat. Everyone knows you cant keep them healthy no matter what. What would be interesting is to see how many of his breakdowns came from the Storm Cat family.

As far as Lukas not turning horses out, well that is semi-right. He is old school and there is nothing wrong with that.

Lukas was the mentor for the top trainers in the game today. I would say that he was doing something correct.

Again, I think it is good he is back with a small stable that he is personally supervising. I guess we will wait for the Oaklawn stats to decide this.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

leading breeders cup trainers by money won

no 1 d wayne lukas starters 145 1st 18 2nd 20 3rd 15 4th 9 5th 12 6th 12

total moneys won up to 2006 19,645,520

hes in front by 16 wins and 9,000.000...id say hes done a good job..

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cakes44

I don't need a trainer's license to know that every time I bet one of his horses(or even just watch), the horse runs like a scalded dog either on the lead or pressing for most of the race, then folds up like a cheap suit at the quarter pole. His horses are rarely in the shape they need to be in order to win whatever races they are entered, and almost none of them know how to relax, whether they are trained that way, or the jockey is instructed that way by DWL.

every time?! that's a sweeping generalization, isn't it? the man has won everything you can win, some races many times over...he was at the top of this game for many many years. no one can sustain a career at the very top for ever. he set the bar incredibly high-so high that even he couldn't sustain that pace. but then, who can?

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

just seems to me that pletcher catches a lot of grief over not having yet won a classic, and days such as his 0-17 in the bcc this year. also see a lot of posts suggesting he isn't totally above board in his training tactics from many. he's achieved a lot of success in a relatively short time, and i feel that will continue in the years to come--and that the amount of detractors will rise with the purse money!! seems everyone enjoys a success--until that guy gets 'too' successful.
look at jerry bailey--he got a ton of grief the last few years, and everyone speculated who would take his place due to his retirement. note who's #1 in the standings, and #1 in the amount of threads started on this board (one example) bashing mr gomez's every awkward move.

I think Pletcher does take a lot of heat for having not won a Classic. Being in the "infancy" of his career (on his own), and being young (relatively speaking) I would think this is somewhat of a temporary thing. I guess we will soon see.

However, and I am not defending him in any way, he has run second and third a few times. The depth of his barn is just incredible. It's not like he is getting homebreds from one or more premier breeding operations and that makes up his barn. Nor is there one owner who fills the stalls with 7 (and in one case, 8) digit purchases.

This year, I read in either the DRF, BH or TT, perhaps all of them, that he started out the year with some staggering number of Classic eligibles. The Derby is an enigmatic race to target, train for, peak for and ultimately win.

I think there is a lot more to the statistics and numbers than just the # of training titles.

Eric

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i'm telling you dahoss, rupe and i have been on opposite sides of this discussion numerous times. nowadays most times i just leave it. he knows what i want, and i know he has failed to produce....

dwl was/is reviled for being so successful. it's drifted away from him for the most part, now many gleefully attack his former pupil, todd pletcher. he's the top dog now, so it's his turn.

pletcher follows in his teachers footsteps nicely and im not referring to the winning which luka$$ hasnt done much of the last 5-6 years for the kinda stock hes had to be well under 20%. im well aware of the farm pletchers relative has where all the cripples are at, he dont give a shiat either just like his former boss

Originally Posted by disappearingdan_akaplaya

pletcher follows in his teachers footsteps nicely and im not referring to the winning which luka$$ hasnt done much of the last 5-6 years for the kinda stock hes had to be well under 20%. im well aware of the farm pletchers relative has where all the cripples are at, he dont give a shiat either just like his former boss

I was right on the rail about 100 yards from the finish line at the 2006 BC. Pletcher walked right passed me on his way down to see Fleet Indian when she was injured. Pletcher's face was stone cold blank. Simply no emotion at all. The pace of his walk didnt increase, he just calmly walked down to where she was and back. That was all.