BC Sprint Purse Being Withheld

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by freddymo

This is a dubious position. 2 days after galloping in an allowance the gelding was treated for bleeding and appetite enhancement. Within 48 hours after a stroll THEY KNEW the horse needed therapeutic anabolic steroids in order to compete at maximum levels 70 days later and test clean(or so they thought.
I get the trace elements in the geldings system had 0 impact that day on the horses effort but is that really the spirit of banning them from performance enhancement? This horse needed steroids to trainer harder keep weight on so that on race day he would be at optimum fitness. And there are several professional that have written that anabolic steroids continue to have dramatic benefit even after complete detectable withdrawal.

We all know what Ellis was doing here. He was giving the horse as much steroid as he thought he could possibly get away with and stay within the rules. This wasn't therapeutic. But he didn't know as much as he thought he did about using it and it burned him.

How do you tell the owner you have to scratch from the race you've been doping...err...planning for all year?

[Indian Charlie]

I want to know if Ellis tried to enter Masochistic in the Malibu!

[Alabama Stakes]

Yes but was denied

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I want to know if Ellis tried to enter Masochistic in the Malibu!

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Yes but was denied

Needs to test clear before running.

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I want to know if Ellis tried to enter Masochistic in the Malibu!

This is very good. Not sure how many get the reference anymore though.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by cakes44

This is very good. Not sure how many get the reference anymore though.

It is complete BS. I have no idea why IC keeps bringing this up when I pointed out to him years ago that it was BS. We found the article. The only guy who didn't know the age of the horse was the guy who wrote the article. Ellis never said anything about the Malibu or the Strub Series. He knew how old his horse was.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It is complete BS. I have no idea why IC keeps bringing this up when I pointed out to him years ago that it was BS. We found the article. The only guy who didn't know the age of the horse was the guy who wrote the article. Ellis never said anything about the Malibu or the Strub Series. He knew how old his horse was.

I remember that. I bring it up repeatedly because of how absurd it was and I'm skeptical about your claim of ellis's innocence. I'm not saying you were lying, but I am saying your claim seemed far fetched. I don't think that writer made other mistakes and I never thought of Ellis as blessed with an overabundance of intelligence. The explanation you gave was also a very obvious one that anyone could come up with. Unless that writer came out and said it was his mistake, all evidence points to Ellis. Especially how specific it was.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I remember that. I bring it up repeatedly because of how absurd it was and I'm skeptical about your claim of ellis's innocence. I'm not saying you were lying, but I am saying your claim seemed far fetched. I don't think that writer made other mistakes and I never thought of Ellis as blessed with an overabundance of intelligence. The explanation you gave was also a very obvious one that anyone could come up with. Unless that writer came out and said it was his mistake, all evidence points to Ellis. Especially how specific it was.

We looked at the article. There was no quote from Ellis mentioning the Malibu or the Strub Series. There is not even a 1% chance that Ellis did not know Declan's Moon's age. The chances are zero.

To accuse a guy of saying something when there is no quote is absurd. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about politics, horses, or any other subject. If you are going to claim that a guy said something publicly, you need to have a quote. In this case, there was no quote. There was no quote because he never said it. In addition, Samantha Siegel is a very hands-on owner. She and Ron speak practically every day. So you would have to be claiming that she didn't know how old the horse was either. What you're saying is beyond absurd.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

We all know what Ellis was doing here. He was giving the horse as much steroid as he thought he could possibly get away with and stay within the rules. This wasn't therapeutic. But he didn't know as much as he thought he did about using it and it burned him.

How do you tell the owner you have to scratch from the race you've been doping...err...planning for all year?

Craig.. I get that despite being fully aware of the difference you're eager to paint every horseman with the same brush, but to call the Ellis training plan 'doping' is a disservice to the broader discussion.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Craig.. I get that despite being fully aware of the difference you're eager to paint every horseman with the same brush, but to call the Ellis training plan 'doping' is a disservice to the broader discussion.

"Training Plan"? Ok the definition is now in place, a Training Plan is defined and can include the administration of banned race day drugs on a specific date based on guidelines set forth for a previously manufactured drug that is no longer available.

Let's see if I can use it in a sentence. We should claim that horse, he will go into my training program, and will race better.

In my training program we see horses able to train harder and eat well even if they have trouble keeping weight on when trained aggressively.

Once a horse is in my training program they race every 70 days and test clean of any administered compounded banned race day anabolic steroids.


good grief please dont suggest that calling a spade a spade detracts from potential for the Industry to redine the definition of a "training program circa 2016"

Do I think Ellis cheated NO. He is smart great trainer. He learned what to do legally to give his barn and connections the best opportunity to compete and earn. Did he push envelope to edge cross the line, and make a horrid decision, of course.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Do I think Ellis cheated NO. He is smart great trainer. He learned what to do legally to give his barn and connections the best opportunity to compete and earn. Did he push envelope to edge cross the line, and make a horrid decision, of course.

He wasn't as smart as he thought he was in the end though.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

He wasn't as smart as he thought he was in the end though.

Yeah it's going to leave a mark. I don't think Miller or Ellis are cheating, until they fix the loopholes its within guidelines and guidelines are set forth to educate people what is and isnt acceptable tolerance to medication use. Very hard to fault anyone who knows the rules and comes as close as they possible can to breaking them without crossing line. The real puzzle in this is why the heck did he take such a risk given the info he had. Now the jig is up for all these 70 day steroid guys, I bet they would have paid him to scratch the horse so not to further expose the recipe..lol Kidding

[Benny]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...test/96406784/

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Craig.. I get that despite being fully aware of the difference you're eager to paint every horseman with the same brush, but to call the Ellis training plan 'doping' is a disservice to the broader discussion.

You are painting me with a broad brush. I'm addressing one guy that I think was trying to get the maximum amount of steroids into a horse before the big race. It isn't like this is the only horse he does it with. A recently claimed filly went on the 60 day vet list two days after being claimed. He does this all the time. I just do see any way this is therapeutic.

He found a way to get around the alleged "steroids ban", until he didn't. You know who else does it a lot? Peter Miller. I don't see Bob Baffert's name popping up repeatedly on the vet's list for 60 days. I don't see lots of other name trainers, so I can only assume they aren't using steroids. It isn't a broad brush at all, it is about pointing out the guys that are doing shady things playing around the edges of the rules.

And yes, I agree there were other issues regarding this race that should be addressed. Are they more or less serious? I'm not sure to be honest. The horse never should have been allowed to race in the BC Sprint. But let us not forget the root of the problem...Ellis routinely using steroids to train, all the while skipping G1 races to do it.