Paris wtf

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Originally Posted by Danzig

oh, wow...glad to hear she wasn't nearby. just a horrible thing to have happen. I will never, ever understand that process that drives people to do such things.

a few years back, my oldest was going thru a rough patch. one long discussion I had with him....I told him, what you're going thru now is a result of choices you have made. there are always consequences when you decide a path to take.

what have we, as a country, done? choices made by past administrations, and present, has the middle east where it is now...the upheaval, the violence, the terrorists, isis, the refufees. this is our fault.
now, it may have happened there anyway, when one considers the history of that region, especially during and since ww1, and then ww2, the end of empires in the first ww, the drawing of boundaries, the giving of land that wasn't really a euro powers place to give. but this recent stuff-we have to own this. and we, and the other nations so disposed, have to fix this. it won't go away on its own.
the question is, how?
the un? the arab league? a coalition? that ought to be interesting to try to get together, since nations over there might look at religious divisions as a larger issue than terrorism. sunni, Shiite, isis, al Qaeda...it's a nightmare.

Wow!

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Hickory Hill Hoff

Wow!

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...sis-syria-iraq

A bit of background, although it only goes back a few years, when really, the West has been messing with the Middle East for decades and decades.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...sis-syria-iraq

A bit of background, although it only goes back a few years, when really, the West has been messing with the Middle East for decades and decades.

hell of a read, isn't it?

and then there's

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...-isis-fighters

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Hickory Hill Hoff

Wow!

yep, wow.
who'd have thought we'd come to such a pretty pass...but it's time to own what we've contributed, and then figure out what to do about it.
now, I'm sure you didn't mean wow as in you agree, or that it just hit you...I know you mean this as 'how dare I?'. but yes, I dare, because it's true.
who is isis? who constititutes their leadership? why is Syria in upheaval, or Iraq? who created the chaos over there in the years since we went over there to remove saddam, while ignoring why we didn't remove him in gulf 91, because we knew them that it would cause just what the hell we have now.
you go back and look over the history of ww1, the fall of the ottomans, the allies in the middle east and how they got treated after by euros, ww2, borders drawn by people from Europe, Russia vs afganistan and what did (Osama bin laden said we'll let the u.s. help us get rid of the soviets, and then we'll get rid of the us), we supported Iraq vs iran, because whoever the soviets were against, we would support...while ignoring just who it was we supported!
so, you go study all that, and then you come back and tell me how I'm wrong in placing blame where it belongs.
did we actually arm the terrorists and get them to attack? no. but we sure all hell have contributed substantially to all that is going on over there, and all the consequences that come from our crap foreign policy decisions over the decades.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Originally Posted by Danzig

yep, wow.
who'd have thought we'd come to such a pretty pass...but it's time to own what we've contributed, and then figure out what to do about it.
now, I'm sure you didn't mean wow as in you agree, or that it just hit you...I know you mean this as 'how dare I?'. but yes, I dare, because it's true.
who is isis? who constititutes their leadership? why is Syria in upheaval, or Iraq? who created the chaos over there in the years since we went over there to remove saddam, while ignoring why we didn't remove him in gulf 91, because we knew them that it would cause just what the hell we have now.
you go back and look over the history of ww1, the fall of the ottomans, the allies in the middle east and how they got treated after by euros, ww2, borders drawn by people from Europe, Russia vs afganistan and what did (Osama bin laden said we'll let the u.s. help us get rid of the soviets, and then we'll get rid of the us), we supported Iraq vs iran, because whoever the soviets were against, we would support...while ignoring just who it was we supported!
so, you go study all that, and then you come back and tell me how I'm wrong in placing blame where it belongs.
did we actually arm the terrorists and get them to attack? no. but we sure all hell have contributed substantially to all that is going on over there, and all the consequences that come from our crap foreign policy decisions over the decades.

you sound like my dear friend Nick Kling now, there was a handicapper!

[Danzig]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate..._of_paris.html


So, for about one hundred years now, the west has dictated to the middle East. And we are where exactly??
So...keep doing the same thing, while expecting a different result. There is a word for that. And it isn't 'intelligent'.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate..._of_paris.html


So, for about one hundred years now, the west has dictated to the middle East. And we are where exactly??
So...keep doing the same thing, while expecting a different result. There is a word for that. And it isn't 'intelligent'.

Well, I guess we're ......... I guess America isn't the GREATEST country in the world. Sad that the "left" believes this

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Hickory Hill Hoff

Well, I guess we're ......... I guess America isn't the GREATEST country in the world. Sad that the "left" believes this

I'm not sure how you come to such a conclusion based on world powers treatment of that region if the world. Seems rather simplistic to say that. With us or against us type logic?
However, I would direct you to the video someone posted a few weeks back, with jeff Daniels talking about that very subject.
This place has its good points, but there is certainly room for improvement.

[GenuineRisk]

"They (Conservatives) don't get it. We (Liberals) love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America the way a four-year-old loves her mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a four-year-old everything mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes mommy is bad. Grown-up love means understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and work and is the best thing in the world. That's why we liberals want America to do the right thing. We know American is the hope of the world, and we love it and want it to do well." - Al Franken