Hurt speech

[GenuineRisk]

OldDog, I read that article you linked to. Where in the article does it offer "I disagree with you," as an example? If it's there, I missed it.

[OldDog]

I offer it as an example. Clearly "hurtful." I mean, see the response that it provokes?

(NSFW - language)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IEF...-6yrvek5kbNf3Z
(at around 0:25)

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by OldDog

I offer it as an example. Clearly "hurtful." I mean, see the response that it provokes?

(NSFW - language)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IEF...-6yrvek5kbNf3Z
(at around 0:25)

It's so interesting you bring this up- I happened to go to a lecture on Monday about micro aggressions, and one of the things the lecturer, Dr. Wing Sue, talked about was that it's a very challenging thing to explain out of context. For example, this video, taken out of context, does seem like a student getting upset over nothing. However, you're seeing 80 seconds of reaction to a situation that's been building for a long time. It's not just about the email. Here's a piece written by a senior at Yale, which helps frame what you see in the video:

https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what...e-6bdbbeeb57a6

Dr. Sue talked about how television and mass media is one of the worst places to discuss it because everything has to be in 30 second soundbites, and he, for example, needs a good half hour to really be able to explain micro aggression. When you see a person really lose their sh*t like that, it's usually a case of the straw finally breaking the camel's back, not that they suddenly get upset out of nowhere. Him disagreeing with her was not what got her upset. The Yale administration repeatedly ignoring a culture of racism on campus is what got her upset. The guy in the video interrupting her (repeatedly) to tell her he disagreed (an example of gender based micro aggression, by the way) is just what finally pushed to her shout about it.

This gives great examples of micro aggressions experienced daily by people of color:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/raci...sis#.nfbrqJa0D

And that's the thing; it's death by a thousand cuts. One taken out of context doesn't seem like anything, especially to white Americans, but for those who experience it every day, it's cumulative.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

It's so interesting you bring this up- I happened to go to a lecture on Monday about micro aggressions, and one of the things the lecturer, Dr. Wing Sue, talked about was that it's a very challenging thing to explain out of context. For example, this video, taken out of context, does seem like a student getting upset over nothing. However, you're seeing 80 seconds of reaction to a situation that's been building for a long time. It's not just about the email. Here's a piece written by a senior at Yale, which helps frame what you see in the video:

https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what...e-6bdbbeeb57a6

Dr. Sue talked about how television and mass media is one of the worst places to discuss it because everything has to be in 30 second soundbites, and he, for example, needs a good half hour to really be able to explain micro aggression. When you see a person really lose their sh*t like that, it's usually a case of the straw finally breaking the camel's back, not that they suddenly get upset out of nowhere. Him disagreeing with her was not what got her upset. The Yale administration repeatedly ignoring a culture of racism on campus is what got her upset. The guy in the video interrupting her (repeatedly) to tell her he disagreed (an example of gender based micro aggression, by the way) is just what finally pushed to her shout about it.

**Trigger warning**

I disagree.

Tell me where he interrupts her repeatedly.

The "guy in the video," Nicholas Christakis, listens to her, says "I did not..." before she raises a hand toward him and shouts, "Be quiet!" She lowers her tone, he stands silently and listens to her and when she pauses he calmly says, "No, I don't agree with that." From that point she erupts. If his was a "microaggression," hers was a macroaggression. She might as well have said, "Respect me! Apologize to me! And while you're at it, STFU!"

If you watched the previous two videos, you clearly see Christakis addressing other questions from the crowd in a calm, measured approach. One student demands he apologize. When he tells her (teaching moment) that just because a person asks for an apology doesn't mean that the other person instantly has to say yes, the crowd jeers and boos and shusses him. (But, but, what about his feelings?) BTW, what's up with the finger snapping? Is clapping now offensive?

No one needs to explain to me Jencey (f-bomb girl) Paz's viewpoint. I got it straight from her:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/3357552/posts

They (Erika and Nicholas Christakis) have again and again shown that they are committed to an ideal of free speech, not to the Silliman community.

Feelings trump free speech.

When students tried to tell him about their painful personal experiences as students of color on campus, he responded by making more arguments for free speech. It's unacceptable when the Master of your college is dismissive of your experiences. The Silliman Master's role is not only to provide intellectual stimulation, but also to make Silliman a safe space that all students can come home to. His responsibility is to make it a place where your experiences are a valid concern to the administration and where you can feel free to talk with them about your pain without worrying that the conversation will turn into an argument every single time. We are supposed to feel encouraged to go to our Master and Associate Master with our concerns and feel that our opinions will be respected and heard.

Presenting an alternative viewpoint is "dismissive." Yes, provide intellectual stimulation as long as it agrees with my viewpoint. If it doesn't, apologize for your offense NOW. Make me feel safe, unthreatened by alternative ideas, such as the First Amendment.

He seems to lack the ability, quite frankly, to put aside his opinions long enough to listen to the very real hurt that the community feels.

He keeps throwing up that damn free speech stuff instead of agreeing with me.

He doesn't get it. And I don't want to debate. I want to talk about my pain.

Screaming obscenities at professors may be acceptable at institutions of "higher learning," but (potential trigger) Ms. Paz won't be well prepared for the real world in which such a rant at a workplace (trigger) superior will get her sent walking. Unless maybe she works for the government, in which case she'll get a bonus.

[GenuineRisk]

I'm glad you brought this topic up, because it's certainly timely.

Here is what "free speech" has been on these college campuses:

A swastika painted out of feces on a dorm wall (Mizou)
Swastikas drawn in chalk on campus (Yale)
Nooses left hanging on trees (Duke and U. of Mississippi)
Greek houses hosting "blackface parties" (UCLA)
Student body president called "An Indian piece of sh*t" (U. of SoCal)

The last one is the subject of this article, and it's worth the read, because she talks about how the comments she faced during her run for president called back to what she went through growing up, which is exactly what microagressions are:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ody-president/

Going back to what she had to say, again, her rage is not specifically about the conversation with the campus official; it's a cumulation and he was what triggered it into shouting. Look at it as a rage fest 20 years in the making (guessing at her age).

There's free speech, and there's safety. And calling out and swiftly working to condemn racially and sexually aggressive speech, especially on a PRIVATE college campus, is responsible behavior by an administration. It's protecting your students. The kids (or more likely, their parents) pay a lot of money to go these places; they have a need to feel safe on them.

The thing is, if you're not a minority, micro aggressions are not something you're going to experience in your life. And I know that's something that gets some people very angry and defensive, but it is what it is. We're all members of our culture, and our culture is based around "white male" as the standard and everything else is "minority." It's been that way for centuries; it's not going to change in a couple of decades. The only thing that's changing now is that minorities are starting to feel safe enough in some spaces to speak up, and in many cases now, shout and scream about it. That's a good thing.

I can only speak to micro aggressions I've experienced due to being female, as, being white, I don't experience racial micro aggressions and being heterosexual I don't experience micro aggressions directed at women who identify as lesbian. Micro aggressions wear you out. There are many things I don't like about getting older, but I do very much like no longer having to field the endless comments young women get on the street, largely from guys who I'm sure think they are doing nothing offensive or wrong by saying, "Hello, beautiful!" or "Smile, sweetheart!" or "Hey, Red!" but who don't understand that when you get it six or seven times every single day of your life, you get worn out. It's not complementary and it's not fun. You have to acknowledge them, you have to be nice, or they get mean REAL quick. I watched one guy trail a young woman for two blocks, nagging her to brighten up (she had smiled at his first comment, but I guess that wasn't enough). After she finally was able to (gently) get rid of him, I made a light comment to her about his persistence and she said, "Right? I mean, I already paid him." (meaning she smiled the first time he spoke to her) Her choice of words wasn't accidental. It wasn't fun for her. She had to give him something to make him take his unsolicited attention away.

I'm sure every single female on this board has similar stories. Hell, I remember a old guy, when I was TWELVE, stopping my dad at the grocery store and, indicating me, saying to my dad, "Well, you're keeping her nice and thin!" Over thirty years later, I still remember it, and how weird it made me feel.

Now, add in going your whole life with the term "p*ssy" meaning something weak and undesirable. "Douche." "You throw like a girl." "You drive like a woman." Hell, vagina has been used as an insult on this very board by at least one of our esteemed members. Over years, over decades, it all adds up. You're a woman. You're not as good. Just because.

I can't stress enough that what's going on at the Yale campus is not about one email about Halloween costumes, and that woman's outburst was not about the conversation with the official. It's about much, much more.

The shame of it is, that a culture of patriarchy (again, being white, the only one I can speak to with any sense of it as a minority) is damaging to men, too. Short men are only perceived of as less attractive because our culture dictates men should be taller than their partners (Why? one asks. Because a taller woman implies what to us? Why does that bother us?). And fact is, the leading indicator that someone will commit a violent crime is being born male. Why? Why are boys so much more likely to grow up to be violent? (To me, it's because our culture's focus on "strong" and "stoic" means we don't teach boys how to deal with their emotions and then they grow up to hit people smaller than they are)

But it's our culture. Change is scary. How tightly we all cling to the chains that bind all of us.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Here is what "free speech" has been on these college campuses:

A swastika painted out of feces on a dorm wall (Mizou)
Swastikas drawn in chalk on campus (Yale)
Nooses left hanging on trees (Duke and U. of Mississippi)
Greek houses hosting "blackface parties" (UCLA)
Student body president called "An Indian piece of sh*t" (U. of SoCal)

When and by whom were the Mizzou poo swastika, the Yale swastikas, the Duke noose and others defended as constitutionally protected free speech?

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Going back to what she had to say, again, her rage is not specifically about the conversation with the campus official; it's a cumulation and he was what triggered it into shouting. Look at it as a rage fest 20 years in the making (guessing at her age).

There's free speech, and there's safety. And calling out and swiftly working to condemn racially and sexually aggressive speech, especially on a PRIVATE college campus, is responsible behavior by an administration. It's protecting your students. The kids (or more likely, their parents) pay a lot of money to go these places; they have a need to feel safe on them.

Much as I may try to empathize with her, she is from a well to do family and community in CT and she is attending YALE. I am wondering what rage issues/triggers she has endured in her 20 something years. Her outburst much more resembles my neighbor’s horribly spoiled 13YO daughter than a promising 20 something attending one of the most prestigious institutions of learning in the world. I can’t help wondering if shielding college students from anything “offensive” does them any favors in preparation for the real world. The ladies at my local Shell station have a more well-adjusted outlook than does this young woman (and they use more refined language.)

Now we’re to the point that disagreeing is offensive, "an example of gender based micro aggression," and met with demands for firings/resignations. I watched how Mizzou students, and some faculty, treated those with whom they disagreed. I read how protesters at a Yale free speech forum, as well as the Yale student above, treated those with whom they disagree. There was nothing “micro” about their aggression. It was more like proto-fascism.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by OldDog

When and by whom were the Mizzou poo swastika, the Yale swastikas, the Duke noose and others defended as constitutionally protected free speech?

Much as I may try to empathize with her, she is from a well to do family and community in CT and she is attending YALE. I am wondering what rage issues/triggers she has endured in her 20 something years. Her outburst much more resembles my neighbor’s horribly spoiled 13YO daughter than a promising 20 something attending one of the most prestigious institutions of learning in the world. I can’t help wondering if shielding college students from anything “offensive” does them any favors in preparation for the real world. The ladies at my local Shell station have a more well-adjusted outlook than does this young woman (and they use more refined language.)

Now we’re to the point that disagreeing is offensive, "an example of gender based micro aggression," and met with demands for firings/resignations. I watched how Mizzou students, and some faculty, treated those with whom they disagreed. I read how protesters at a Yale free speech forum, as well as the Yale student above, treated those with whom they disagree. There was nothing “micro” about their aggression. It was more like proto-fascism.

Hey, OldDog! Apologies for not replying sooner!

The things I cited can all be defended as constitutionally protected free speech.

I was giving you examples of how what the students are mad about is NOT an email about Halloween costumes; it goes much, much deeper than that. Their peers, their fellow students, are painting swastikas in feces, and hanging nooses, and donning blackface at parties. And it's not like this behavior is new to them once they get to college. The NYDaily News ran an article this week about a 14-year-old honor student and athlete at school in Virginia writing a letter about the racism and harassment he faces from his peers:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2432355

Honor student and football player. Fourteen years old. This is his letter:
"To Whom It May Concern:

Yesterday on the football bus coming from our football game a kid ... started saying racist things to me. He then started saying he does not like blacks and he told me 200 years ago my ancestors hung from a tree and after he said that I should I hang from a tree. That made me super mad, so in the locker room I told him not to call me n----r or that I should be hung on a tree. The coaches took me away from the kid because I was really mad and they think I was going to fight him but I want someone to do something about it because I’m tired of boys messing with me because of my skin. I’m at my boiling point with this. Please do something about this because when I bring it to the office/principle you do nothing about it and I’m tired of the racism."

And as the article makes clear, it's far from this one encounter.

The student in the video may well be from a financially secure family and, as you pointed out, she's going to Yale. That said, as many of the students protesting on campus have pointed out, it's Yale. It's supposed to be a safe space; they're paying for this. And if this stuff happens on the privileged grounds of Yale, what does that mean about what's happening in the rest of the nation?

Dr. Sue mentioned that, as an Asian American, he has, hundreds of times, been asked, "Where are you from? No, but where are you from? But where?" (Because, apparently, "Portland, Oregon," which is where he was born, is not an acceptable answer). "Oh, Dr. Sue, you speak English so well!" (Well, duh, it's his first language. May be his only language, for all I know). This is a guy with a Ph.D, who I'm sure is quite financially comfortable, getting this stuff from well-meaning individuals who probably really don't think they're being offensive, but what comments like this say is, "You're an other; you're different."

If you haven't clicked the link about visual micro aggressions I posted in my first reply to this thread, I really really recommend it. It's a quick scroll through of young men and women of color holding up cards with the kinds of things they experience every day. Heck, I'll repost it here because I think it's really important.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/raci...sis#.ne5YdwNEa