American Pharoah... what's next for our new Champion? (The Haskell)

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Thanks, I didn't realize that.




That makes it seem even more unlikely that AP will go to MTH.

Look Dortmund goes in TRAVERS IMO that has always been plan Baffert KNOWS AP will trounce him and Baffert KNOWS Shah would love a stallion making G! Travers on Dortmund's resume.. Dortmund is no bum and wiring the Travers is very realistic. AP has done enough till BCC Haskell MAYBE PAC Classic and last race BCC..

[RHT2004]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Look Dortmund goes in TRAVERS IMO that has always been plan Baffert KNOWS AP will trounce him and Baffert KNOWS Shah would love a stallion making G! Travers on Dortmund's resume.. Dortmund is no bum and wiring the Travers is very realistic. AP has done enough till BCC Haskell MAYBE PAC Classic and last race BCC..

I doubt he faces elders until the Classic. Though the JCGC should be every owners goal.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Look Dortmund goes in TRAVERS IMO that has always been plan Baffert KNOWS AP will trounce him and Baffert KNOWS Shah would love a stallion making G! Travers on Dortmund's resume.. Dortmund is no bum and wiring the Travers is very realistic. AP has done enough till BCC Haskell MAYBE PAC Classic and last race BCC..

Don't expect to see Dortmund very soon. He's worked twice, ten days apart and is reportedly still very underweight.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Look Dortmund goes in TRAVERS IMO that has always been plan Baffert KNOWS AP will trounce him and Baffert KNOWS Shah would love a stallion making G! Travers on Dortmund's resume.. Dortmund is no bum and wiring the Travers is very realistic. AP has done enough till BCC Haskell MAYBE PAC Classic and last race BCC..

Freddy - He's barely beaten Firing Line....twice. That's his claim to fame thus far.

A G!(sic) Travers win will not promote him to "Stallion Making" status any more than it did for V.E. Day. If healthy, he'll be back at 4, and likely 5.

[RHT2004]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Freddy - He's barely beaten Firing Line....twice. That's his claim to fame thus far.

A G!(sic) Travers win will not promote him to "Stallion Making" status any more than it did for V.E. Day. If healthy, he'll be back at 4, and likely 5.

Clearly you have a lack of respect for the mighty Dortmund.

[DonGuido]

Originally Posted by RHT2004

Clearly you have a lack of respect for the mighty Dortmund.

Dortmund sweeps the stalls after AP leaves for a walk or whatever. Nice horse but Dortmund may also carry AP's horse shoes in a bag for him. I hate to say it but Dortmund is very forgettable.

Prestige-wise for AP is Haskell, Travers (nothing better this time of year, nothing) and then BC Classic. Not sure that's in the cards for him but if I owned him and Bobby gave me the thumbs up on his conditioning . . . no brainer.

If and it is a big if, he were to run the table he may get his head carved into Mount Rushmore!!!

[RHT2004]

Originally Posted by DonGuido

Dortmund sweeps the stalls after AP leaves for a walk or whatever. Nice horse but Dortmund may also carry AP's horse shoes in a bag for him. I hate to say it but Dortmund is very forgettable.

Prestige-wise for AP is Haskell, Travers (nothing better this time of year, nothing) and then BC Classic. Not sure that's in the cards for him but if I owned him and Bobby gave me the thumbs up on his conditioning . . . no brainer.

If and it is a big if, he were to run the table he may get his head carved into Mount Rushmore!!!

You're a sharp one. I never mentioned AP. Its not fair to compare Dortmund to him all of the time.

[DonGuido]

Originally Posted by RHT2004

You're a sharp one. I never mentioned AP. Its not fair to compare Dortmund to him all of the time.

And DUH . . . you just gave me the platform . . . comprende'? Why take it so personal? Or am I being too intuitive? Lets talk about the horse or his supposed challengers and not diss on those of us pee-ons who only post here only because they have nothing else better to do. But it's so much fun for many of you . . . booooooooooring!

Or, and I apologize if I did . . . did I misunderstand your innuendo?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Freddy - He's barely beaten Firing Line....twice. That's his claim to fame thus far.

A G!(sic) Travers win will not promote him to "Stallion Making" status any more than it did for V.E. Day. If healthy, he'll be back at 4, and likely 5.

But VE day wasn't a multiple grade 1 winner. Dortmund won a grade 1 at 2 years old and winning the travers would give him multiple grade 1 wins at 3. His two losses were to the first triple crown winner in almost 40 years including a respectable 3rd in the derby.

If Dortmund was by ap Indy out of some blue hen mare, I would think a win in the travers would be big for his resume. Are you basing your statement on his breeding?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Freddy - He's barely beaten Firing Line....twice. That's his claim to fame thus far.

A G!(sic) Travers win will not promote him to "Stallion Making" status any more than it did for V.E. Day. If healthy, he'll be back at 4, and likely 5.

By the time VE Day broke his maiden (2nd week of May) Dortmund had won four graded stakes and 2 Grade Is. He also finished third in the Ky Derby. There is absolutely, positively no comparison between their respective resumes if Dortmund were to win the Travers, as big an "if" as that is.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Look Dortmund goes in TRAVERS IMO that has always been plan Baffert KNOWS AP will trounce him and Baffert KNOWS Shah would love a stallion making G! Travers on Dortmund's resume.. Dortmund is no bum and wiring the Travers is very realistic. AP has done enough till BCC Haskell MAYBE PAC Classic and last race BCC..

Originally Posted by dalakhani

But VE day wasn't a multiple grade 1 winner. Dortmund won a grade 1 at 2 years old and winning the travers would give him multiple grade 1 wins at 3. His two losses were to the first triple crown winner in almost 40 years including a respectable 3rd in the derby.

If Dortmund was by ap Indy out of some blue hen mare, I would think a win in the travers would be big for his resume. Are you basing your statement on his breeding?

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

By the time VE Day broke his maiden (2nd week of May) Dortmund had won four graded stakes and 2 Grade Is. He also finished third in the Ky Derby. There is absolutely, positively no comparison between their respective resumes if Dortmund were to win the Travers, as big an "if" as that is.

I wasn't actually comparing V.E. Day to Dortmund; I was point out that a Travers win will do the same for Dortmund as it did for him.

Dortmund's form is so fluffed up that it would embarrass anyone who actually would take a moment to delve into it.

Los Al Futurity – won a 3 horse photo against the aforementioned Firing Line (who would later outfinish him in the Derby) and the Indomitable Mr. Z. The fourth place horse would come back to win an overnight restricted stake, and is winless since. The Fifth place horse is still winless.

Robert B Lewis – Beat Firing Line by a head, the third place horse by 22 lengths, who is still, along with the rest of the field – winless.

San Vincente – Won by a length in a 10 horse field… Impressive. Except when you look at what he beat:

Prospect Park – 0 for 2 since
Bolo –1 for 3 since. just won an allowance N1X
Lord Nelson – 0 for 2 since
The Gompter - 0 for 2 since
Pain and Misery 1 for 3 since. Just took down the prestigious “Charles Taylor Derby” at Albuquerque.
Ocho Ocho Ocho - 0 for 2 since
Sir Samson – unraced since
Kenjisstorm – 1 for 2 since. The win? A maiden claiming 30K

So the field is 3 for 18 out of the San Vincente; those 3 wins coming by way of a mcl 30, a N1X, and of course the toast of Albuquerque


Santa Anita Derby- Beat 5 others, scoring in a hand ride by almost 5 lengths.
One Lucky Dane – unraced since
Bolo – See Above
Prospect Park – See Above
Cross the Line – 0 for 2 since, well beaten in a AOC affair last
Bad Read Sanchez – unraced since.

So nothing has come out of the Santa Anita Derby to win a race.

My opinion hasn't changed - This horse has been dressed up since Day 1 and hasn't beaten anything of note (save for Firing Line, who is a very nice horse, but not a champion by anyone's count) in his life.

A Travers win, however unlikely (as Nick pointed out), should do nothing to bolster his resume unless he plans to stand in Louisiana, California, or overseas.

[Port Conway Lane]

I don't think there is a major prep leading up to and including the Belmont that any winner's resume was enhanced by the runners behind them. Dortmund is one of the top runners of this crop to this point.I'd like to see a strong case made for two others.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

I wasn't actually comparing V.E. Day to Dortmund; I was point out that a Travers win will do the same for Dortmund as it did for him.

Dortmund's form is so fluffed up that it would embarrass anyone who actually would take a moment to delve into it.

Los Al Futurity – won a 3 horse photo against the aforementioned Firing Line (who would later outfinish him in the Derby) and the Indomitable Mr. Z. The fourth place horse would come back to win an overnight restricted stake, and is winless since. The Fifth place horse is still winless.

Robert B Lewis – Beat Firing Line by a head, the third place horse by 22 lengths, who is still, along with the rest of the field – winless.

San Vincente – Won by a length in a 10 horse field… Impressive. Except when you look at what he beat:

Prospect Park – 0 for 2 since
Bolo –1 for 3 since. just won an allowance N1X
Lord Nelson – 0 for 2 since
The Gompter - 0 for 2 since
Pain and Misery 1 for 3 since. Just took down the prestigious “Charles Taylor Derby” at Albuquerque.
Ocho Ocho Ocho - 0 for 2 since
Sir Samson – unraced since
Kenjisstorm – 1 for 2 since. The win? A maiden claiming 30K

So the field is 3 for 18 out of the San Vincente; those 3 wins coming by way of a mcl 30, a N1X, and of course the toast of Albuquerque


Santa Anita Derby- Beat 5 others, scoring in a hand ride by almost 5 lengths.
One Lucky Dane – unraced since
Bolo – See Above
Prospect Park – See Above
Cross the Line – 0 for 2 since, well beaten in a AOC affair last
Bad Read Sanchez – unraced since.

So nothing has come out of the Santa Anita Derby to win a race.

My opinion hasn't changed - This horse has been dressed up since Day 1 and hasn't beaten anything of note (save for Firing Line, who is a very nice horse, but not a champion by anyone's count) in his life.

A Travers win, however unlikely (as Nick pointed out), should do nothing to bolster his resume unless he plans to stand in Louisiana, California, or overseas.

Mr Z is a nice horse Bolo, 888, Prospect Park all can be graded winners they all have talent. Firing Line is VERY GOOD. I think the Travers is a perfect spot for Dortmund. You avoid squaring off against AP and IF and its a big IF you win Mid summer Derby arguably the 2nd most prestigious colt race its a huge feather in his cap. You combine the SA Derby and Travers on a stallion resume and you have a full book of mares at a solid opening price point.

If you are Baffert and you have a big owner like Shah you certainly want to enter the Travers as no less then 4th most likely winner. Save AP who would be a dominate favorite in Travers? I think he is pretty good and I think IF he returns to his early form he will be a handful against any of what we have seen to date save AP

[Frost King]

Have just been told by a reliable source, that they are thinking of starting American Pharoah's Stud Fee at $200k, if he wins the Haskell and Breeder's Cup Classic, it would then jump to $275k.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Frost King

Have just been told by a reliable source, that they are thinking of starting American Pharoah's Stud Fee at $200k, if he wins the Haskell and Breeder's Cup Classic, it would then jump to $275k.

Sid Fernando would REALLY know. Not sure why anyone would breed to him at that price point when in 2 years it will be 65% of the starting figure? Why would you guess on AP when PoTN is half the price

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Sid Fernando would REALLY know. Not sure why anyone would breed to him at that price point when in 2 years it will be 65% of the starting figure? Why would you guess on AP when PoTN is half the price

Originally Posted by Frost King

Have just been told by a reliable source, that they are thinking of starting American Pharoah's Stud Fee at $200k, if he wins the Haskell and Breeder's Cup Classic, it would then jump to $275k.

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57689\

Darren Rovell, ESPN.com Sports Business reporter

The price to get a genetic piece of American Pharoah is -- not surprisingly -- going to be high.

The Triple Crown horse's owner, Ahmed Zayat, told ESPN.com on Thursday that interest in American Pharoah's breeding has been so great from around the world that Coolmore Ashford Stud, which purchased the majority of the horse's stallion rights, is thinking of charging near-historic prices for a first-year stallion.

"It's their decision and not mine, but the talk is that the stallion fee is likely to open at north of $200,000," Zayat said.

American Pharoah's owner, Ahmed Zayat, told ESPN.com that interest in his breeding has been so great that Coolmore Ashford Stud, which purchased the majority of the horse's stallion rights, is thinking of charging near-historic prices. Al Bello/Getty Images

That would be more than three times the opening stud fee of 2008 Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner Big Brown. That horse, whose breeding rights were sold on a reported valuation of $50 million, had an opening stud fee in 2009 -- no doubt discounted by the economic crisis -- of $65,000.

A $200,000 fee also would likely make American Pharoah the second-most expensive stallion at stud for 2016. Tapit is currently the most expensive at $300,000 per live foal. Only two other horses currently stand for more than $100,000 -- War Front ($150,000) and Medaglia d'Oro ($125,000).

Zayat, who owns 100 percent of the horse on the track and an undisclosed sum as a stallion, said he intends on racing the horse three times before the end of 2015 despite the possible risk that the first Triple Crown winner since 1978 could lose at the track, which could lower the intrigue for potential breeding buyers. Zayat acknowledged that not only did he purchase additional insurance after the horse won both the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness, but he also paid higher premiums to keep the horse insured at his current value after he won the Belmont. Zayat wouldn't say how much the horse was currently insured for and has not, as of yet, announced the races in which American Pharoah will be entered.

Neither Zayat nor Coolmore disclosed the price for American Pharoah's breeding rights, though Zayat did say that there were escalator clauses in the contract that made the price more valuable with each Triple Crown leg win.

Zayat Stables actually owned the parents of American Pharoah and home-bred the horse, but brought him to the 2013 Fasig-Tipton yearling sale to sell him. When buyers weren't bidding what he wanted, Zayat bought the horse back for $300,000.

Investors aren't just interested in the sex appeal of having a piece of a Triple Crown winner, but also can feel confident in American Pharoah's bloodlines. His sire is Pioneerof the Nile, the leading money-winning son of Empire Maker. His family tree also includes Mr. Prospector, whose descendants have now won 43 Triple Crown races.

Pioneerof the Nile, which currently stands at WinStar Farm, is expected to get a nice bump in stud fee thanks to his son's Triple Crown. WinStar president and CEO Elliott Walden told ESPN.com that the horse's fee will rise from $60,000 per live foal to in between $125,000 and $150,000 "depending on how the year ends up."

The all-time record for the highest stud fee is believed to be Northern Dancer, who in the 1980s could command $1 million to breed to a single mare. More recently, Storm Cat commanded a fee of $500,000, before the economic downturn in 2009 lowered all prices at the breeding shed.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

I wasn't actually comparing V.E. Day to Dortmund; I was point out that a Travers win will do the same for Dortmund as it did for him.

Dortmund's form is so fluffed up that it would embarrass anyone who actually would take a moment to delve into it.

Los Al Futurity – won a 3 horse photo against the aforementioned Firing Line (who would later outfinish him in the Derby) and the Indomitable Mr. Z. The fourth place horse would come back to win an overnight restricted stake, and is winless since. The Fifth place horse is still winless.

Robert B Lewis – Beat Firing Line by a head, the third place horse by 22 lengths, who is still, along with the rest of the field – winless.

San Vincente – Won by a length in a 10 horse field… Impressive. Except when you look at what he beat:

Prospect Park – 0 for 2 since
Bolo –1 for 3 since. just won an allowance N1X
Lord Nelson – 0 for 2 since
The Gompter - 0 for 2 since
Pain and Misery 1 for 3 since. Just took down the prestigious “Charles Taylor Derby” at Albuquerque.
Ocho Ocho Ocho - 0 for 2 since
Sir Samson – unraced since
Kenjisstorm – 1 for 2 since. The win? A maiden claiming 30K

So the field is 3 for 18 out of the San Vincente; those 3 wins coming by way of a mcl 30, a N1X, and of course the toast of Albuquerque


Santa Anita Derby- Beat 5 others, scoring in a hand ride by almost 5 lengths.
One Lucky Dane – unraced since
Bolo – See Above
Prospect Park – See Above
Cross the Line – 0 for 2 since, well beaten in a AOC affair last
Bad Read Sanchez – unraced since.

So nothing has come out of the Santa Anita Derby to win a race.

My opinion hasn't changed - This horse has been dressed up since Day 1 and hasn't beaten anything of note (save for Firing Line, who is a very nice horse, but not a champion by anyone's count) in his life.

A Travers win, however unlikely (as Nick pointed out), should do nothing to bolster his resume unless he plans to stand in Louisiana, California, or overseas.

Who has Dortmund beat? Who has American Pharoah beat? When it comes to value for stallions and broodmares, the big question is never who they beat. The question is how many graded stakes races (especially grade I's) did they win. Dortmund has already won a couple of grade I races. If he somehow won the Travers, that would be huge for his value as a stallion. He would have plenty of value as a stallion if he won the Travers and he could definitely stand in Kentucky. The one thing that would hurt him is the fact that he is by Big Brown. If Dortmund was by a better sire and he won the Travers, he could stand for a lot of money. But since he is by Big Brown, he would probably stand for more like $10,000 or so.

By the way, I have never been a Dortmund fan. I have always thought he was overrated. But I have to have some respect for any horse that wins 4 graded stakes races including two grade I's.

I completely disagree with you that a win for Dortmund in the Travers would do no more for him than V.E Day's win did for him. When a horse only has one graded stakes win, people might think it was a fluke. But when a horse has three grade I wins, nobody is going to think it was a fluke. Not to mention the fact that Dortmund ran 3rd in the Ky Derby. That in itself doesn't mean that much, but when that is in addition to winning three grade I's including the Travers, that is a very good resume. This whole conversation is probably a moot point because Dortmund will probably not win the Travers.

[DonGuido]

So every time I read something or see a picture of AP, it just WOWs me. What a champion and what a friendly, good mannered equine. I mean, greatness and good nature seldom go hand and hand . . . 1 in a million. The connections are loving his relationship with the fans and media as much as he is.

I read a post on another very legit forum that the Travers is booked for him. Anyone else know about this . . . for real?

On a overall sports note . . . what a year so far. American Pharoah and the US Women's Soccer team . . . thrills and chills . . . both the best in the world right here in the USA!!!

[Kasept]

Last Santa Anita breeze (:59.2) before shipping to Del Mar: http://www.hrtv.com/videos/workout-a...pharoah-71215/

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Look Dortmund goes in TRAVERS IMO that has always been plan Baffert KNOWS AP will trounce him and Baffert KNOWS Shah would love a stallion making G! Travers on Dortmund's resume.. Dortmund is no bum and wiring the Travers is very realistic. AP has done enough till BCC Haskell MAYBE PAC Classic and last race BCC..

After the running of the Gold Cup, I don't think they have anything to fear in facing elders in the Pacific Classic.