Kellyn Gorder - buh bye for 14 months

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by jms62

Is it remotely possible that a worker in the barn had the meth and touched something that the horse ingested?

You're welcome to read the linked article where he states that all of his employees were drug tested and none failed. But I'm sure that a worker shook the hand of a meth head and then handled a bunch of needles - that makes complete sense.

I'm not continuing on with this, feel free to keep on keepin' on amongst yourselves.

I for one an glad when this sh1t gets found out and the cheaters are getting punished. US racing is a laughing stock globally, principally due to this "head on the sand" mentality.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

You're welcome to read the linked article where he states that all of his employees were drug tested and none failed. But I'm sure that a worker shook the hand of a meth head and then handled a bunch of needles - that makes complete sense.

I'm not continuing on with this, feel free to keep on keepin' on amongst yourselves.

I for one an glad when this sh1t gets found out and the cheaters are getting punished. US racing is a laughing stock globally, principally due to this "head on the sand" mentality.

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

When stories, like this one, eventually get out to the international racing community - you may want to read what is said - particularly in the comments sections of the British press. It may open your eyes a bit.

There is no doubt that we produce the finest thoroughbreds in the world, and there is global demand for their racing ability and stallion prospects.

I do not buy the argument that we have "too much racing". It simply isn't true. The majority of racing in this country is mid-bottom level claiming at places most of us don't even bet.

There are only a handful of A-List tracks in this country, and from Keeneland to Aqueduct racing stock is paltry.

Why do horses in Europe, Hong Kong and Japan start more often than ours?

Simple question.

If one doesn't think there is too much medication in racing, and there are too many pushing the envelope with medication (legal and otherwise), then this whole episode is probably offensive to one's sensibilities. I get it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

When stories, like this one, eventually get out to the international racing community - you may want to read what is said - particularly in the comments sections of the British press. It may open your eyes a bit.

There is no doubt that we produce the finest thoroughbreds in the world, and there is global demand for their racing ability and stallion prospects.

I do not buy the argument that we have "too much racing". It simply isn't true. The majority of racing in this country is mid-bottom level claiming at places most of us don't even bet.

There are only a handful of A-List tracks in this country, and from Keeneland to Aqueduct racing stock is paltry.

Why do horses in Europe, Hong Kong and Japan start more often than ours?

Simple question.

If one doesn't think there is too much medication in racing, and there are too many pushing the envelope with medication (legal and otherwise), then this whole episode is probably offensive to one's sensibilities. I get it.

just googled, and found this in a ny times article:

The average horse in the U.K. started 6.3 times in 2006, according to the most recent statistics available from the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities. That is exactly the same average start for horses in the United States. Horses in France raced slightly less, with an average of 5.8 starts. In Hong Kong, the average number of starts was 7.8.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

i was thinking the same thing, that the amount of racing has to be different. and we have a lot of dirt racing, whereas turf is limited for races, thus more starters for less races countrywide in europe and elsewhere. less tracks, less opportunities would automatically inflate the number of starters.

it's not a simple graph that can be taken at face value.
as for gorder-if this is a one off, than i'm sorry for him. but all trainers who get a reputation started from no positives. i can see where people get jaded when they hear a trainer got a positive, that it's just assumed 'here we go again'. and all of them have friends who support and defend them. and you hear the same defense over and over...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

Well said.

[Cannon Shell]

There is next to zero chance that anyone especially a trainer in the position that Gorder is in would knowingly or intentionally give their horse meth.

The idea that a street drug, especially Meth in the state of KY (meth capital of the US) , found at the picogram level wouldn't be the result of contamination is the hard to believe part.

It is close to impossible to police your horses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is extremely hard to eliminate all human contact from your horses.
At the picogram level the horse could be contaminated by almost any contact. A maintenance worker from the track pees in the receiving barn stall after fixing a broken light bulb or cleaning the stall. A feed company employee. A test barn employee. Someone at the lab. Maybe the assistant trainer cashed his check before the race ad didnt wash his hands before putting on the tongue tie?

All sound a bit far fetched but a whole lot less far fetched than Gorder intentionally giving a first time in a year starter meth.
I'm amazed that people actually think that any viable trainer would try that.

The fact is that being a trainer nowdays is a nightmare. The rules are never actually spelled out for us, we virtually have no rights regardless of whether we are actually at fault, if we win too much we are suspicious, if we dont win enough we are clueless...

Often we arent getting paid for our services yet because a live animal is the the middle of this we have to keep on taking care of it to the best of our abilities or we are the bad guys. When a terrible incident like this happens despite it likely being completely out of our control, the internet judge and juries convict us instantly and we are blamed for the demise of racing and the euros disdain for our racing (they dont seem to like the NFL too much and they dont seem to worried).

Say you loan your car to your 17 year old kid to go to the mall. He picks up some of his friends and maybe one of those friends is a little shady and has a little bag of meth that he hides in the glove compartment when no one is looking. Now you get in the car and get pulled over for speeding and when you open the glove compartment out drop the little bag of meth that you had no idea was there. Cops arrest you for possession. Are you really a criminal?

[RHT2004]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is next to zero chance that anyone especially a trainer in the position that Gorder is in would knowingly or intentionally give their horse meth.

The idea that a street drug, especially Meth in the state of KY (meth capital of the US) , found at the picogram level wouldn't be the result of contamination is the hard to believe part.

It is close to impossible to police your horses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is extremely hard to eliminate all human contact from your horses.
At the picogram level the horse could be contaminated by almost any contact. A maintenance worker from the track pees in the receiving barn stall after fixing a broken light bulb or cleaning the stall. A feed company employee. A test barn employee. Someone at the lab. Maybe the assistant trainer cashed his check before the race ad didnt wash his hands before putting on the tongue tie?

All sound a bit far fetched but a whole lot less far fetched than Gorder intentionally giving a fist time starter meth.
I'm amazed that people actually think that any viable trainer would try that.

The fact is that being a trainer nowdays is a nightmare. The rules are never actually spelled out for us, we virtually have no rights regardless of whether we are actually at fault, if we win too much we are suspicious, if we dont win enough we are clueless...

Often we arent getting paid for our services yet because a live animal is the the middle of this we have to keep on taking care of it to the best of our abilities or we are the bad guys. When a terrible incident like this happens despite it likely being completely out of our control, the internet judge and juries convict us instantly and we are blamed for the demise of racing and the euros disdain for our racing (they dont seem to like the NFL too much and they dont seem to worried).

Say you loan your car to your 17 year old kid to go to the mall. He picks up some of his friends and maybe one of those friends is a little shady and has a little bag of meth that he hides in the glove compartment when no one is looking. Now you get in the car and get pulled over for speeding and when you open the glove compartment out drop the little bag of meth that you had no idea was there. Cops arrest you for possession. Are you really a criminal?

Makings lots of sense Chuck.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is next to zero chance that anyone especially a trainer in the position that Gorder is in would knowingly or intentionally give their horse meth.

The idea that a street drug, especially Meth in the state of KY (meth capital of the US) , found at the picogram level wouldn't be the result of contamination is the hard to believe part.

It is close to impossible to police your horses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is extremely hard to eliminate all human contact from your horses.
At the picogram level the horse could be contaminated by almost any contact. A maintenance worker from the track pees in the receiving barn stall after fixing a broken light bulb or cleaning the stall. A feed company employee. A test barn employee. Someone at the lab. Maybe the assistant trainer cashed his check before the race ad didnt wash his hands before putting on the tongue tie?

All sound a bit far fetched but a whole lot less far fetched than Gorder intentionally giving a fist time starter meth.
I'm amazed that people actually think that any viable trainer would try that.

The fact is that being a trainer nowdays is a nightmare. The rules are never actually spelled out for us, we virtually have no rights regardless of whether we are actually at fault, if we win too much we are suspicious, if we dont win enough we are clueless...

Often we arent getting paid for our services yet because a live animal is the the middle of this we have to keep on taking care of it to the best of our abilities or we are the bad guys. When a terrible incident like this happens despite it likely being completely out of our control, the internet judge and juries convict us instantly and we are blamed for the demise of racing and the euros disdain for our racing (they dont seem to like the NFL too much and they dont seem to worried).

Say you loan your car to your 17 year old kid to go to the mall. He picks up some of his friends and maybe one of those friends is a little shady and has a little bag of meth that he hides in the glove compartment when no one is looking. Now you get in the car and get pulled over for speeding and when you open the glove compartment out drop the little bag of meth that you had no idea was there. Cops arrest you for possession. Are you really a criminal?

Chuck, unless you and Steve are privy to some information that isn't spelled out in the Steward's Ruling, then I don't know why this minimum picogram amount keeps getting brought up, and hypotheticals about a meth-head stall mucker's comb falling into a pile of hay, which got disturbed at the precise moment that the pee cup was deployed, and by osmosis precisely 21 picograms of crystal meth flew into the pee cup - I don't buy it for a second.

It isn't like it's odd that a trainer - perhaps predisposed to taking a edge, or perhaps pressured by an owner to get his firster home, with the promise of more/better stock- would use meth.
It's essentially speed - it increases heart rate, adrenalin, etc. which enhances performance; Zilpaterol abuse has been a problem in New Mexico until they started suspending everyone caught using it for 3 years (Gorder should count his blessings).

He got caught using a Class A substance. Period. It really doesn't matter if he's been getting away with it for 1, 3 or 10 years, or if this was the first time. And it doesn't matter that it wasn't cobra venom or frog juice. And it really doesn't matter that he's an affable guy, rather than a douche-bag.

It was a class A substance, and let's knock the BS off - was given to the horse by someone in his barn. Someone needs to be held accountable, and it's his barn.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Chuck, unless you and Steve are privy to some information that isn't spelled out in the Steward's Ruling, then I don't know why this minimum picogram amount keeps getting brought up, and hypotheticals about a meth-head stall mucker's comb falling into a pile of hay, which got disturbed at the precise moment that the pee cup was deployed, and by osmosis precisely 21 picograms of crystal meth flew into the pee cup - I don't buy it for a second.

It isn't like it's odd that a trainer - perhaps predisposed to taking a edge, or perhaps pressured by an owner to get his firster home, with the promise of more/better stock- would use meth.
It's essentially speed - it increases heart rate, adrenalin, etc. which enhances performance; Zilpaterol abuse has been a problem in New Mexico until they started suspending everyone caught using it for 3 years (Gorder should count his blessings).

He got caught using a Class A substance. Period. It really doesn't matter if he's been getting away with it for 1, 3 or 10 years, or if this was the first time. And it doesn't matter that it wasn't cobra venom or frog juice. And it really doesn't matter that he's an affable guy, rather than a douche-bag.

It was a class A substance, and let's knock the BS off - was given to the horse by someone in his barn. Someone needs to be held accountable, and it's his barn.

Your premise is so idiotic that I probably shouldnt bother responding.

He didnt get caught using anything. His horses urine tested positive for a minute amount of an illicit drug that isnt used on animals but by drug addicts. There is basically no chance that he gave this to his horse on purpose. That you seem unable to understand difference is baffling.

Not to mention that detection causes the positive test, not detection at levels that could affect performance. Simple detection. Of course most people screaming for blood won't bother noting that.

I feel badly for someone I barely even know because I am 99.9% sure that he had zero idea that meth was ever in that horse and his business is going to be destroyed, his reputation is being dragged through the mud and he will likely incur a huge amount of legal fees. From here on whenever he has a runner do well or has a streak of a few winners in a row the internet geniuses will be whispering "maybe he is using the meth again". It is a scarlet letter that he almost assuredly doesnt deserve.

What is scary is that I have trained about the same amount of years and have a pretty similar record in terms of lack of medication violations and this could happen to me just as easily.

[Cannon Shell]

How would one acquire meth to give to a horse? How would you know its actually meth? How would you know its purity? How would you know how much to give and when to give it? Do meth labs give out handbooks on horse doping?

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Your premise is so idiotic that I probably shouldnt bother responding.

Thanks for taking the time. We idiots (bettors) appreciate it when the Know-All's take a moment to remind us how in the dark we always are. It makes all that money we wa....errr.....wager.... seem so less important when some one "In the know" talks down to us.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He didnt get caught using anything. His horses urine tested positive for a minute amount of an illicit drug that isnt used on animals but by drug addicts. There is basically no chance that he gave this to his horse on purpose. That you seem unable to understand difference is baffling.

Ummm... yeah he did. You can play a game of semantics all you'd like, but at the end of the day a horse in his charge, tested positive for a stimulant, principally methamphetamine - which can and does affect a horse in the same way it affects every other mammal that ingests it.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not to mention that detection causes the positive test, not detection at levels that could affect performance. Simple detection. Of course most people screaming for blood won't bother noting that.

Ok - so by simply testing a sample for it, it makes it positive - yet you have no idea what the amount detected in the lab tests were. You are blindly assuming it's a borderline false-positive without any substantiation. Ok, again, I get it.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I feel badly for someone I barely even know because I am 99.9% sure that he had zero idea that meth was ever in that horse and his business is going to be destroyed, his reputation is being dragged through the mud and he will likely incur a huge amount of legal fees. From here on whenever he has a runner do well or has a streak of a few winners in a row the internet geniuses will be whispering "maybe he is using the meth again". It is a scarlet letter that he almost assuredly doesnt deserve.

You don't know him, but you're 99.9% he was railroaded. That is certainly open minded. But then so is this assertion that his test was a borderline positive that was triggered by the test itself, without, again, any substantiation.

You know who I feel badly for? The people that day in and day out keep the sport in business - even in the face of absurd takeout rates, jockeys that intractably put horses in inexplicable and untenable positions, stewards that regularly make a mockery of their responsibilities, and the ever present alchemists, who run up ticket costs by forcing inclusion based on whether they have their "program" working or not.

And then the best part of it all is having to endure the barrage of condescension from the "Insiders" as to how all of it is perfectly acceptable.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What is scary is that I have trained about the same amount of years and have a pretty similar record in terms of lack of medication violations and this could happen to me just as easily.

I somehow highly doubt that.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What is scary is that I have trained about the same amount of years and have a pretty similar record in terms of lack of medication violations and this could happen to me just as easily.

But it didn't happen to you.

The guy could've run a tighter ship.

[Left Bank]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is next to zero chance that anyone especially a trainer in the position that Gorder is in would knowingly or intentionally give their horse meth.

The idea that a street drug, especially Meth in the state of KY (meth capital of the US) , found at the picogram level wouldn't be the result of contamination is the hard to believe part.

It is close to impossible to police your horses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is extremely hard to eliminate all human contact from your horses.
At the picogram level the horse could be contaminated by almost any contact. A maintenance worker from the track pees in the receiving barn stall after fixing a broken light bulb or cleaning the stall. A feed company employee. A test barn employee. Someone at the lab. Maybe the assistant trainer cashed his check before the race ad didnt wash his hands before putting on the tongue tie?

All sound a bit far fetched but a whole lot less far fetched than Gorder intentionally giving a first time in a year starter meth.
I'm amazed that people actually think that any viable trainer would try that.

The fact is that being a trainer nowdays is a nightmare. The rules are never actually spelled out for us, we virtually have no rights regardless of whether we are actually at fault, if we win too much we are suspicious, if we dont win enough we are clueless...

Often we arent getting paid for our services yet because a live animal is the the middle of this we have to keep on taking care of it to the best of our abilities or we are the bad guys. When a terrible incident like this happens despite it likely being completely out of our control, the internet judge and juries convict us instantly and we are blamed for the demise of racing and the euros disdain for our racing (they dont seem to like the NFL too much and they dont seem to worried).

Say you loan your car to your 17 year old kid to go to the mall. He picks up some of his friends and maybe one of those friends is a little shady and has a little bag of meth that he hides in the glove compartment when no one is looking. Now you get in the car and get pulled over for speeding and when you open the glove compartment out drop the little bag of meth that you had no idea was there. Cops arrest you for possession. Are you really a criminal?

Well said, Chuck.

[ne to socal]

Coming at this from a somewhat different angle (I don't know Kellyn or bet his horses)...

I'm a licensed owner, small time via a group, but nevertheless my license affords me unfettered access to the backside.

Half the reason I got into ownership is sometimes what I need to keep me sane (day job is intense) is to spend some time in the barn area with my daughters, or a friend, or alone wandering around...chatting casually with our trainers and grooms and assistants...feeding a couple carrots...picking up a curry comb for a few minutes...

The other day I was with a first timer at the track and I took her back to the barns and we came upon a farrier doing his thing and the groom waved us over as my friend was fascinated. We asked, and the groom allowed her to feed the mare a carrot (we had a bag with us). It was then I saw the name on the bridle and if it was really that horse, my friend was feeding a Grade II winner.

My point to this story? What other sport allows this kind of access? Literally a few hundred people backside who have an almost unchecked access to screwing with another person's horse out of spite or some other sick stupid motivation.

Are we ready for and/or would we welcome changes where access is heavily restricted or in some cases eliminated? Who'd pay for that and is it even feasible? When my daughters were born, the hospitals used various wristbands and keycards to control access and that's for a small floor in a secure building with maybe 20 babies at once. Not a huge backside open to the air with upwards of 1000-2000 horses.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by ne to socal

Coming at this from a somewhat different angle (I don't know Kellyn or bet his horses)...

I'm a licensed owner, small time via a group, but nevertheless my license affords me unfettered access to the backside.

Half the reason I got into ownership is sometimes what I need to keep me sane (day job is intense) is to spend some time in the barn area with my daughters, or a friend, or alone wandering around...chatting casually with our trainers and grooms and assistants...feeding a couple carrots...picking up a curry comb for a few minutes...

The other day I was with a first timer at the track and I took her back to the barns and we came upon a farrier doing his thing and the groom waved us over as my friend was fascinated. We asked, and the groom allowed her to feed the mare a carrot (we had a bag with us). It was then I saw the name on the bridle and if it was really that horse, my friend was feeding a Grade II winner.

My point to this story? What other sport allows this kind of access? Literally a few hundred people backside who have an almost unchecked access to screwing with another person's horse out of spite or some other sick stupid motivation.

Are we ready for and/or would we welcome changes where access is heavily restricted or in some cases eliminated? Who'd pay for that and is it even feasible? When my daughters were born, the hospitals used various wristbands and keycards to control access and that's for a small floor in a secure building with maybe 20 babies at once. Not a huge backside open to the air with upwards of 1000-2000 horses.

Great point. When Dee Tee had Sumwonlovesyou with Cannon virtually every person on this board along with friends and family had access to her and fed her daily. I remember someone actually baked her a cake and wanted to feed that to her. That mare got fed so many mints Chuck made a joke about her developing diabetes.

It's simply impossible for a trainer and his workers to watch every horse 24/7.

Bottom line with Kellyn in particular is if the horse was administered meth as a race enhancer it would not have been shown in the minute quantity it was and if it had been administered in previous days it would have limited the horse's performance. Ever see a meth user come down?

[saratogadew]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

You're welcome to read the linked article where he states that all of his employees were drug tested and none failed. But I'm sure that a worker shook the hand of a meth head and then handled a bunch of needles - that makes complete sense.

I'm not continuing on with this, feel free to keep on keepin' on amongst yourselves.

I for one an glad when this sh1t gets found out and the cheaters are getting punished. US racing is a laughing stock globally, principally due to this "head on the sand" mentality.

I don't care what the hypocrital global racing community thinks about our racing. That's exactly why Meydan switched to dirt. To lure our laughable stock.