The Rail at Aqueduct

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Barcola wins by 18 lengths, lol.
This is pretty funny stuff.

What I found most pathetic about that particular " race " was the intensive effort by the riders of the horses, who have speed, inside of Barcola to maintain their inside position. I guess hustling from the gate wasn't in their best interests.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What I found most pathetic about that particular " race " was the intensive effort by the riders of the horses, who have speed, inside of Barcola to maintain their inside position. I guess hustling from the gate wasn't in their best interests.

Don't you think at some point they just give up?
I mean, I know that they arent geniuses. But I truly think they stop trying on tracks like this when they know they have no speed.
I saw what you saw, but I think at some point they just say screw it.

[blackthroatedwind]

I hear ya but don't you at least try to play to the track's strengths if you have the animal to do it? Honestly, if guys don't then at some point you begin to wonder just how much they want to win and then you veer off into crazy-paranoid-horseplayerland where you begin to actually believe guys are cheating. Then you stop paying attention and betting and find somewhere else to play where at least you believe things are on the level.

Unfortunately, in this game as much as anywhere, perception is very close to reality.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I hear ya but don't you at least try to play to the track's strengths if you have the animal to do it? Honestly, if guys don't then at some point you begin to wonder just how much they want to win and then you veer off into crazy-paranoid-horseplayerland where you begin to actually believe guys are cheating. Then you stop paying attention and betting and find somewhere else to play where at least you believe things are on the level.

Unfortunately, in this game as much as anywhere, perception is very close to reality.

No, I think your perception IS reality.
I know you and many others think I'm nuts to like tracks like the Finger lakes and Fair Grounds, but I truly see guys ride out their mounts all the time and hustle.
I just think on a day like today when they know they can't pass anyone, that often they all just grab(when guys like you and I are screaming why don't they send?!!!!) and try and suck up late in the race.
Its why I didn't play Friday after one race I played, and why I didn't play today.
I just hate speed biased days in NY. I can't tell you the whole why or how, but our jocks don't ride like they do in Cali and other places. We just never seem to get speed duels even when it looks as if there just has to be one.
One guys always gets loose and the other speeds grab and follow the leader.
I see it all the time and its just impossible for me to play when its like that.
At least in Cali if there is a bias, a whole bunch of guys know it and send like hell to the lead and give you a duel. Not in NY, never.
I think these jocks are far too cozy with one another in Ny, I really do. They seem reluctant to duel with each other.

[blackthroatedwind]

First of all, I don't think you or anyone is crazy to play other tracks, and I am probably lazy and foolish not to simply move my play to another curcuit. I do not know the reasons, though obviously I have suspicions, but I have been struggling to win in NY for quite a while. I am becoming resigned to the idea that it has to be easier somewhere else.

I think you are right, that save Saratoga, where the competition and attention is fierce, the races in NY often lack the competitiveness they often have on paper. Whatever the reasons it makes things difficult. And now it's wintertime, and CC Lopez is unfortunately back, so I basically have stopped playing. I bet a few dollars in the 6th today ( won pennies ) and lost most of that on Tasteyville in the 8th. I have neither the inclination to do the work nor the interest in betting my money.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

First of all, I don't think you or anyone is crazy to play other tracks, and I am probably lazy and foolish not to simply move my play to another curcuit. I do not know the reasons, though obviously I have suspicions, but I have been struggling to win in NY for quite a while. I am becoming resigned to the idea that it has to be easier somewhere else.

I think you are right, that save Saratoga, where the competition and attention is fierce, the races in NY often lack the competitiveness they often have on paper. Whatever the reasons it makes things difficult. And now it's wintertime, and CC Lopez is unfortunately back, so I basically have stopped playing. I bet a few dollars in the 6th today ( won pennies ) and lost most of that on Tasteyville in the 8th. I have neither the inclination to do the work nor the interest in betting my money.

I've been saying the same thing for quite some time. And I agree that other than Saratoga or big days at Bel and Aqu, Ny has become so very hard to win at.
Everyone blames juicing but thats not what i am seeing. I am seeing exotic payout after exotic payout that makes absolutely no sense.
I do understand why that race with the firsters paid so little, Jerkens horse was buried in gimmicks, and it was a tough race and some folks went all all underneath.
But day after day its underlaid payouts that make no sense. The icing on the cake this weekend was Italian Saint actually going off as the FAVORITE !!! and winning for fun. I laughed out loud at that one.
Value is hard to find, and I like to play races at a track where they "flow" the way they used to everyplace.
I cant take the non-contested pace races and whats worse, they never seem to miss in NY with these ****ing overbet favorites that drive players here up the wall. I mean, so many times you see horses bet WAY down below where they should be, so you play against them as a good player is supposed to do, and they just waltz home. Its supposed to even out but it seemingly never does.

[blackthroatedwind]

I'm not getting into the " juice " discussion...because I can't.

I found the feature race on Saturday to be highly questionable. There was a Barclay Tagg horse, Stormy Kiss maybe, who on paper was clear speed and pretty much a cinch. The second choice was trained by Gary Contessa, Magnolia Jackson, a horse of minor ability who while she could win, and deserved to be second choice, was no major threat to the favorite on paper. Now the betting opens, and Magnolia Jackson opens 1/9, and the obvious favorite is somewhere around 2:1. While Magnolia drifts to 2:5 a few minutes before post she still remarkably is ultimately favored while both horses are even money. The race didn't even need to be run.

Tagg's horse got the lead, but it was apparent to anyone watching that Magnolia Jackson, who was stalking, was going to eat her up at will. And she did, with the longest shot on the board sucking up for second. Now, I don't think anything went on with Magnolia Jackson, and her abhorant 75 Beyer fig backs that up, but how the hell did EVERYONE know that the Tagg horse was finished?

I cannot make my decisions based on the board but if I am finding situations like the one described above I simply cannot bet.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I've been saying the same thing for quite some time. And I agree that other than Saratoga or big days at Bel and Aqu, Ny has become so very hard to win at.
Everyone blames juicing but thats not what i am seeing. I am seeing exotic payout after exotic payout that makes absolutely no sense.
I do understand why that race with the firsters paid so little, Jerkens horse was buried in gimmicks, and it was a tough race and some folks went all all underneath.
But day after day its underlaid payouts that make no sense. The icing on the cake this weekend was Italian Saint actually going off as the FAVORITE !!! and winning for fun. I laughed out loud at that one.
Value is hard to find, and I like to play races at a track where they "flow" the way they used to everyplace.
I cant take the non-contested pace races and whats worse, they never seem to miss in NY with these ****ing overbet favorites that drive players here up the wall. I mean, so many times you see horses bet WAY down below where they should be, so you play against them as a good player is supposed to do, and they just waltz home. Its supposed to even out but it seemingly never does.

Me too, and while I don't necessarily suspect foul play in the races themselves (although your ryan is flying example was certainly odd, and i thought the same thing after reviewing the card) it's either (a) the players are too sharp relative to other jurisdictions or ( b ) there's past posting going on (which would be a huge huge huge disaster.)

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

First of all, I don't think you or anyone is crazy to play other tracks, and I am probably lazy and foolish not to simply move my play to another curcuit. I do not know the reasons, though obviously I have suspicions, but I have been struggling to win in NY for quite a while. I am becoming resigned to the idea that it has to be easier somewhere else.

I think you are right, that save Saratoga, where the competition and attention is fierce, the races in NY often lack the competitiveness they often have on paper. Whatever the reasons it makes things difficult. And now it's wintertime, and CC Lopez is unfortunately back, so I basically have stopped playing. I bet a few dollars in the 6th today ( won pennies ) and lost most of that on Tasteyville in the 8th. I have neither the inclination to do the work nor the interest in betting my money.

I have switched my play to Kentucky recently, for the reasons you state. The amount of NYB races lately, while I applaud the program and plead for its success, is frustrating due to the unhandicappable nature of them; it seems there's either a layup favorite which would have to fall down to lose or an absolutely inscrutable race in which you feel lucky getting the winner going 5 deep. The only thing I've had success on this fall is the pick 4, in which you can express your "race" opinions, i.e., singling an obvious horse and going deep in the others, and still getting a reasonable (and logical) payoff.

I NEVER want to abandon NY racing in general, and the lower takeout is always a plus relative to other jurisdictions, but i have no "juice" to play Aqu lately (no pun intended.)