Race to breed or breed to race?

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Ummmm, my initial post CLEARLY mentioned " Aqueduct ", and thus the Remsen and Demoiselle, and the fact that none of the races I mentioned " fit
the schedule " is what's puzzling as certainly when the season began I imagine Todd had penciled himself in, so to speak, as being an obvious participant in ALL these races.

I imagine Todd will survive the tsunami when " guys like Seth " leave ( that's assistant trainer Seth Benzal for those of you, ya know, not " in the know " ).

You say a lot about Pletcher, and it's obvious you adore him, which is fine, but that doesn't make ALL of it true. He is, however, a fine trainer who runs an immensely impressive operation.

I don't adore him, I admire him and what hes done and how he does it.
As someone in the business, I think thats normal.
I met him when he had just gone on his own, Ramsey was the 2nd guy to give him horses after he went public. Hes only one friggin year older than I am.
Hes a total pro, as a trainer and as a person. He conducts himself at the highest level most of the time, and hes incorporated business methods into the horse business.
I've also never heard of anyone who has anything bad to say about him as far as business dealings or people dealings, as you know at the racetrack this is very rare.
I think anyone in the business wants to succeed like he has.

By the way BTW, a lotta people bash Beyer and Crist and I admire them just as much. They took their passion to a new level, and got rich doing so.
I fail to see the difference.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by oracle80

By the way BTW, a lotta people bash Beyer and Crist and I admire them just as much. They took their passion to a new level, and got rich doing so.
I fail to see the difference.

The difference is that every time someone even discusses a situation involving Pletcher you feel a need to tell everyone how great YOU think he is and list all the attributes YOU think he has......instead of actually addressing the issue at hand.

For example, if someone says " Crist is shilling for NYRA ", my response will stick to that silly comment and not include that he loves his wonderful wife and dogs. If someone says " Beyer makes up his numbers " I don't include that he bikes 25 miles a day, also loves his wife dearly, and can finish any crossword puzzle in a matter of minutes, I merely address the issue brought up.

So far I haven't noticed a lot of people saying slanderous accusations concerning Todd, and if they did it should not be tolerated on this site, but I have seen an enormous amount of defensiveness from you virtually everytime his name is brought up. One MIGHT think you have some odd need to convince yourself.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I don't adore him, I admire him and what hes done and how he does it.
As someone in the business, I think thats normal.
I met him when he had just gone on his own, Ramsey was the 2nd guy to give him horses after he went public. Hes only one friggin year older than I am.
Hes a total pro, as a trainer and as a person. He conducts himself at the highest level most of the time, and hes incorporated business methods into the horse business.
I've also never heard of anyone who has anything bad to say about him as far as business dealings or people dealings, as you know at the racetrack this is very rare.
I think anyone in the business wants to succeed like he has.

I know him Mike....and you know that....so I don't know what you are trying to prove here. He's done a remarkable job, we all know that, and if we didn't you have reminded us many times. None of this detracts from some of the issues raised and every time someone raises one there is NOT a need for another one of your posts praising how wonderful he is in your eyes. It is irrelevent.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I know him Mike....and you know that....so I don't know what you are trying to prove here. He's done a remarkable job, we all know that, and if we didn't you have reminded us many times. None of this detracts from some of the issues raised and every time someone raises one there is NOT a need for another one of your posts praising how wonderful he is in your eyes. It is irrelevent.

Some could say your defense of Beyer is the same.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Some could say your defense of Beyer is the same.

That is a pretty good point. However, Pletcher is able to back up his work...Beyer isnt.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

That is a pretty good point. However, Pletcher is able to back up his work...Beyer isnt.

Bull**** Euro.
Guy wrote the best books ever, books that educated many about what biases were, trainer intent, z patterns, speed figs, etc.
The DRF used to have archaic speed figures(if you wanna call them that) and now uses his figs.
He was also one of the first widely known guys to form syndicates that attacked big pools because he grasped it made the chances of hitting one better.
So much of what he has done is taken for granted now, that he no longer gets credit for it.
Hes backed up quite a lot in my opinion.

BTW, I brought up his family life and demeanor because it IS RELEVANT when discussing how he gets so many owners.
People tend to trust and wanna do business with these types of folks, its no different than choosing a lawyer, doctor, or financial advisor.
If Dutrow had Todd's demeanor and personal reputation, how many more horses do you think he's have?
The way you conduct yourself off the track DOES matter when you are a horse trainer.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Bull**** Euro.
Guy wrote the best books ever, books that educated many about what biases were, trainer intent, z patterns, speed figs, etc.
The DRF used to have archaic speed figures(if you wanna call them that) and now uses his figs.
He was also one of the first widely known guys to form syndicates that attacked big pools because he grasped it made the chances of hitting one better.
So much of what he has done is taken for granted now, that he no longer gets credit for it.
Hes backed up quite a lot in my opinion.

His are theories and ideas that are much harder to prove.

Dont get me wrong, but I like Beyer and respect the man greatly. But, it is a philosophy and using numbers and analyzing them. It is all theory. Great theory!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by eurobounce

His are theories and ideas that are much harder to prove.

In theory I suppose thats true, but hes got a "pretty good resume" in regards to what hes done.
He changed the way the game was viewed almost singlehandedly.

What I mean by the Beyer thing is that noone has to tell me the guy took a passion and speed figure system and turned it into millions of bucks and generated an entire new generation of players and how they viewed the game.
But when someone criticizes a split variant on two races run an hour apart at Calder, or articles written criticizing suspected cheaters while writing a flowering praise column on a guy with multiple postives, I think those are legitimate criticisms.
It doesn't mean I don't admire the **** out of him and what hes done, but you get the point.