My Eclipse Ballot.. (Updated with Winners, Voting)

[blackthroatedwind]

I'm curious as to how you think Todd should even be a finalist for the trainer Eclipse, much less the winner. In all seriousness, I thought he had a poor year all things considered. Certainly one's stock has to be taken into account. No?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm curious as to how you think Todd should even be a finalist for the trainer Eclipse, much less the winner. In all seriousness, I thought he had a poor year all things considered. Certainly one's stock has to be taken into account. No?

Don't disagree. I typically have looked for alternative options, like Dale Romans 2 years ago, but the stats were tough to look past with Pletcher. I didn't have a mojo trainer that fit the bill. Here's a Stakes, Wins, Earnings standings page. What do you do? http://www1.drf.com/static/eclipseaw...seTrainers.htm

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Don't disagree. I typically have looked for alternative options, like Dale Romans 2 years ago, but the stats were tough to look past with Pletcher. I didn't have a mojo trainer that fit the bill. Here's a Stakes, Wins, Earnings standings page. What do you do? http://www1.drf.com/static/eclipseaw...seTrainers.htm

I give it to a lot of trainers before Todd. Numbers don't do it for me given his numbers going in.

If you look at the season as a whole, it's not pretty.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I give it to a lot of trainers before Todd. Numbers don't do it for me given his numbers going in.

If you look at the season as a whole, it's not pretty.

Believe me, I get it. I've taken that tack in each of the years I've voted. I thought he had a 'down' year going in to the results but was actually surprised his cumulatives were as good as they were.

Here's the GSW's..

2014 Metropolitan Handicap (Gr. 1) Palace Malice
2014 Arkansas Derby (Gr. 1) Danza
2014 Besilu Florida Derby (Gr. 1) Constitution
2014 Alabama Stakes (Gr. 1) Stopchargingmaria
2014 Champagne Stakes (Gr. 1) Daredevil
2014 Claiborne Breeders' Futurity (Gr. 1) Carpe Diem
2014 Hopeful Stakes (Gr. 1) Competitive Edge
2014 Chandelier Stakes (Gr. 1) Angela Renee
2014 TVG Coaching Club American Oaks (Gr. 1) Stopchargingmaria
2014 Black-Eyed Susan Stakes (Gr. 2) Stopchargingmaria
2014 Risen Star Stakes (Gr. 2) Intense Holiday
2014 New Orleans Handicap (Gr. 2) Palace Malice
2014 Gulfstream Oaks (Gr. 2) In Tune
2014 Gazelle Stakes (Gr. 2) My Miss Sophia
2014 Dixiana Elkhorn Stakes (Gr. 2) Unitarian
2014 Nashua Stakes (Gr. 2) Blofeld
2014 Hawthorne Gold Cup Handicap (Gr. 2) Red Rifle
2014 Gulfstream Park Handicap (Gr. 2) Palace Malice
2014 Molly Pitcher Stakes (Gr. 2) Majestic River
2014 Top Flight Handicap (Gr. 2) Teen Pauline
2014 Futurity Stakes (Gr. 2) Blofeld
2014 Davona Dale Stakes (Gr. 2) Onlyforyou
2014 Forward Gal Stakes (Gr. 2) Onlyforyou
2014 Horseshoe Casino Cincinnati Spiral Stakes (Gr. 3) We Miss Artie
2014 Poker Stakes (Gr. 3) Jack Milton
2014 Smarty Jones Stakes (Gr. 3) Protonico
2014 Pimlico Special Stakes (Gr. 3) Revolutionary
2014 Schuylerville Stakes (Gr. 3) Fashion Alert
2014 Sam F. Davis Stakes (Gr. 3) Vinceremos
2014 American Derby (Gr. 3) Divine Oath
2014 Turnback the Alarm Handicap (Gr. 3) Dame Dorothy
2014 Razorback Handicap (Gr. 3) Golden Lad
2014 Discovery Handicap (Gr. 3) Protonico
2014 Kent Stakes (Gr. 3) Divine Oath
2014 Palm Beach Stakes (Gr. 3) Gala Award
2014 Westchester Stakes (Gr. 3) Palace Malice
2014 Cliff Hanger Stakes (Gr. 3) Winning Cause
2014 W. L. McKnight Handicap (Gr. 3) Divine Oath
2014 Old Hat Stakes (Gr. 3) Sweet Whiskey
2014 Skip Away Stakes (Gr. 3) Micromanage

[blackthroatedwind]

The number of horses who never won again after the listed race is positively scary.

[cakes44]

Thanks for putting your list out there. Only one I really have issues with is Lady Eli over TCB.

[Kasept]

Here are the year end (thru 12/29) horse category PP's for everyone's enjoyment: http://static.drf.com/eclipse/pdf/eclipse-pps.pdf

[Arletta]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The number of horses who never won again after the listed race is positively scary.

At least he is able to get them their ever elusive Graded win for their breeding resumes.

[Bogey]

Steve, your ballot is spot on. I hope others come up with similar selections.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Arletta

At least he is able to get them their ever elusive Graded win for their breeding resumes.

That's the point Andy is making because the GSW's aren't all that elusive when you're getting a phalanx of the most expensive, 'success-eligible' horses every crop. And it's the great conundrum with Pletcher as his 'program' may be good for a certain number of clients, but very bad for the game overall. I broached this a bit with Pletcher in his last visit of the year when we talked for 25 minutes and if you listen closely you hear exactly how he approaches each year with Gulfstream as the concentration for assaults on the Classics and Saratoga as a 2nd half focus to get the 2yo's going and relaunch any horses that took time after the spring.

The 80/20 rule is universal, but it's even worse in racing right now with 15% of trainers winning 85% of the stake money. It's a terrible construct.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Don't disagree. I typically have looked for alternative options, like Dale Romans 2 years ago, but the stats were tough to look past with Pletcher. I didn't have a mojo trainer that fit the bill. Here's a Stakes, Wins, Earnings standings page. What do you do? http://www1.drf.com/static/eclipseaw...seTrainers.htm

Maybe Baffert? Same number of G1 Wins with less than half the starters. Bob gets good horses, but not nearly like Todd.

Crazy part with Todd is he gets twice as many horses as it looks like. He cuts the roster 25% before they leave the 2yo training facility and another 25% after their first start. He is dealing from a stacked deck with respect to these year end stats.

Tough for you as a voter.

[saratogadew]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm curious as to how you think Todd should even be a finalist for the trainer Eclipse, much less the winner. In all seriousness, I thought he had a poor year all things considered. Certainly one's stock has to be taken into account. No?

This is an age old argument that never really has a correct answer. For coach of the year in the 4 major sports. Do you give it to the guy with the most talented team that wins the championship? Or do you give it to the coach that has far less talent but has a good season? Voting for a Bill Belichick type is not a sexy vote, but is sometimes correct.

[freddymo]

Does anyone know how many 2&3 year olds TAP gets a year? I would assume 200+ combined? Would any of them not be considered 75k+ specimen's in advance of the start of their pending career? Would be OK with me if they split award for trainers with 100 or more being one category and 100 or less another.

[freddymo]

Personally I think a trainers success isn't just winning A race and then the horse goes into hibernation or abyss. Plus why not give credit to trainers who's stock stays at levels(Brown) and improves(Motion) vs. just winning a big race and never circling back or healthy enough to return to winning form. If the answer is its not "Their Program" then I wish to change the channel to more intelligent and healthy programming. That said TAP is a HoF trainer who enjoys immense success and one of the very best at what he does. Trainer of Year...Not for me especially this year

[Danzig]

Pretty easy to win the 100 yard dash when one starts on the 75 yard line. He should win the eclipse for best businessman.

[Holybull1]

Steve, thanks for posting. I've heard you sing the praises of Lady Eli on your show many times. With all due respect, how can you think her body of work is better than Take Charge Brandi's? If the voting was immediately after the BC a solid case could be made for Lady Eli. But adding another G1 and a $1 million G3 makes this a slam dunk case for TCB.

I totally understand your logic for Lady Eli. She was visually impressive and you believe she's the best 2yo filly. But her on-track results do not stack up to TCB and it's really not close.

To put it another way, Dortmund is widely regarded as the best 2yo cold in the country. But what he's done on the track should not earn him the Eclipse. Obviously that's an extreme analogy, but it clarifies my point.

I really do not want to start an argument, just a discussion. Thanks again.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Holybull1

Steve, thanks for posting. I've heard you sing the praises of Lady Eli on your show many times. With all due respect, how can you think her body of work is better than Take Charge Brandi's? If the voting was immediately after the BC a solid case could be made for Lady Eli. But adding another G1 and a $1 million G3 makes this a slam dunk case for TCB.

I totally understand your logic for Lady Eli. She was visually impressive and you believe she's the best 2yo filly. But her on-track results do not stack up to TCB and it's really not close.

To put it another way, Dortmund is widely regarded as the best 2yo cold in the country. But what he's done on the track should not earn him the Eclipse. Obviously that's an extreme analogy, but it clarifies my point.

I really do not want to start an argument, just a discussion. Thanks again.

HB,

I know I'm on an island with Lady Eli after Brandi's Starlet. But, while Brandi was obviously the best main track filly, I think the group as a whole was less than even ordinary. Meanwhile, Lady Eli's BC J-Filly Turf topped an International cast with real credentials and was done in extraordinary fashion for a 2yo filly. I think Lady Eli is an exceptional talent and that Take Charge Brandi is simply the best of a bad bunch. By comparison, American Pharoah appears poised to be the 2yo champion off a 3 race campaign while Texas Red and Hootenany both built more fully fleshed out seasons.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Personally I think a trainers success isn't just winning A race and then the horse goes into hibernation or abyss. Plus why not give credit to trainers who's stock stays at levels(Brown) and improves(Motion) vs. just winning a big race and never circling back or healthy enough to return to winning form. If the answer is its not "Their Program" then I wish to change the channel to more intelligent and healthy programming. That said TAP is a HoF trainer who enjoys immense success and one of the very best at what he does. Trainer of Year...Not for me especially this year

Todd is not in the Hall of Fame.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Todd is not in the Hall of Fame.

I realize he has not been elected but nonetheless he will certainly be inducted.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I realize he has not been elected but nonetheless he will certainly be inducted.

yea they said that about Steve A as well...things do happen, its not a given.