Good Lord another pletcher freak

Originally Posted by oracle80

last 1/16th in 6 flat and last 3/16 in less than 17 or thereabouts. WIth that pedigree(Thunder Gulch) the sky is the limit on distance. So thats Minefield, Out of Gwenda, Scat Daddy and now this one. Hes got every stakes race for 2yo's this summer on teh East Coast locked up already. Tyro, sapling, the three at the Spa, put his name on the trophies now and save time, then all you have to do si fill in the horses name. This is an embarrassment of riches.

Let's see how Asmussens turn out. You also have east coast tunnel vision.

Originally Posted by boldruler

Let's see how Asmussens turn out. You also have east coast tunnel vision.

Lemme tell you what, I'll put my vision up gansit anyone's. You call ragozin and ask him what the top 4 figs are for 2Yo's this year, and i gurantee its these 4 horses. They are all incredible. The one today was frightening. Thats the kind of debut that gets people plotting a derby course in June of his 2yo year. Thast how good he was. WHy don't you watch teh replay and crunch the numbers and get back to me on that one with a mea culpa.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Lemme tell you what, I'll put my vision up gansit anyone's. You call ragozin and ask him what the top 4 figs are for 2Yo's this year, and i gurantee its these 4 horses. They are all incredible. The one today was frightening. Thats the kind of debut that gets people plotting a derby course in June of his 2yo year. Thast how good he was. WHy don't you watch teh replay and crunch the numbers and get back to me on that one with a mea culpa.

It is June. How many times did Bernardini race before last June? Who cares what happens until October at the earliest. If you are talking KY Derby in June of the 2yr old year, you have zero credibility.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by boldruler

It is June. How many times did Bernardini race before last June? Who cares what happens until October at the earliest. If you are talking KY Derby in June of the 2yr old year, you have zero credibility.

One thing I'll say about Pletcher, he can keep them going and winning stakes into their 3yo or 4yo years. More Than Ready won very early at 2 and won stakes at 3, Limehouse won at 2 and was winning stakes at 4. If anyone keeps them going, it's Pletcher.

Originally Posted by Pointg5

One thing I'll say about Pletcher, he can keep them going and winning stakes into their 3yo or 4yo years. More Than Ready won very early at 2 and won stakes at 3, Limehouse won at 2 and was winning stakes at 4. If anyone keeps them going, it's Pletcher.

Well he usually has a few 2yr olds, doesn't he.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Well he usually has a few 2yr olds, doesn't he.

I believe those two won the 2yo Stakes race on the KY Derby Undercard. You are right he does have a ton, but those were 2 examples of horses that he kept in training at a high level.

Originally Posted by Pointg5

I believe those two won the 2yo Stakes race on the KY Derby Undercard. You are right he does have a ton, but those were 2 examples of horses that he kept in training at a high level.

The guy has 1 horse that costs more than most trainers top 2yr olds combined. The problem with racing horses this soon is that they are running distances that are completely useless in putting any foundation in a horse. What good does a 5F race do a horse. You might as well just breeze them 5F and let them come around for the fall.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

One thing I'll say about Pletcher, he can keep them going and winning stakes into their 3yo or 4yo years. More Than Ready won very early at 2 and won stakes at 3, Limehouse won at 2 and was winning stakes at 4. If anyone keeps them going, it's Pletcher.

Yeah, I was especially impressed with Half-ours.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by boldruler

It is June. How many times did Bernardini race before last June? Who cares what happens until October at the earliest. If you are talking KY Derby in June of the 2yr old year, you have zero credibility.

Are you going to tell me that if you're the owner or trainer of a horse that debuts in June in such convincing fashion as this one, that you will not even let the idea of the KD enter your mind until October? Believe me they're dreaming about it so there's no harm in speculating.

[Scav]

I dream about it now and I don't even own a horse

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Are you going to tell me that if you're the owner or trainer of a horse that debuts in June in such convincing fashion as this one, that you will not even let the idea of the KD enter your mind until October? Believe me they're dreaming about it so there's no harm in speculating.

Dream all you want but these 2yr olds that start this early never win the derby. Young horses are pressed way too early not to mention these are 5.5F races. Horses that win these races usually have excellent speed but that doesn't necessarily win at the 10F distance.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Dream all you want but these 2yr olds that start this early never win the derby. Young horses are pressed way too early not to mention these are 5.5F races. Horses that win these races usually have excellent speed but that doesn't necessarily win at the 10F distance.

I'm not sure if it is true that no horse has won the derby with such an early start. I'd like to see the data on that. I'll grant you this, many of the horses that win often and early at two are speedy precocious types that end up with distance limitations. But that doesn't mean that it's impossible to start in June and win in May.

There was a good thread on ESPN a few months back where people offered what appeared to be credible data that suggested that lots of gallops were not the answer and that actual racing early in the 2YO season was more beneficial for bone and structure development and would reduce the likehood of injury. Of course over-racing would be problematic.

Keep this in perspective also, not many horses win the derby period, so it's easy to come up with statistics that are not significant.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I'm not sure if it is true that no horse has won the derby with such an early start. I'd like to see the data on that. I'll grant you this, many of the horses that win often and early at two are speedy precocious types that end up with distance limitations. But that doesn't mean that it's impossible to start in June and win in May.

There was a good thread on ESPN a few months back where people offered what appeared to be credible data that suggested that lots of gallops were not the answer and that actual racing early in the 2YO season was more beneficial for bone and structure development and would reduce the likehood of injury. Of course over-racing would be problematic.

Keep this in perspective also, not many horses win the derby period, so it's easy to come up with statistics that are not significant.

Horse that win in June are winning at 5F races. It is completely useless for a horse that needs to stretch out to 10F. All you get now are speed freaks that everyone goes crazy over but that have zero chance of winning the derby.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I'm not sure if it is true that no horse has won the derby with such an early start. I'd like to see the data on that.

In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's ... there were 26 champions ... of all ages and sex ... who made their 2YO debuts in February, March, or April.

25 of them had full, injury-free careers ... of the 26 ... only Hail To Reason had his career compromised by injury.

The best strategy was ... is ... and always will be ... to run them early and often. Young horses must learn what it means to be professional athletes ... and must be raced into proper condition to accomplish that.

"Spacing" races and running horses "fresh" ... only produces the type of china dolls ... like Barbaro ... who can't physically or mentally handle the pressure of G1 racing.

As to Mr. Pletcher ... what else is new? He always has stables full of the best-bred horses ... and has rightfully become known as the "King Of The MSW Sprints." But when the 2YO colts have to go two turns in G1 races ... or the older colts have to go 10f ... it's bye-bye Toddie.

Every year he sets a new record for Triple Crown nominess ... and every year he comes up empty. He's a very accomplished trainer ... and a real nice guy ... but he's never developed a colt into a champion at classic distances ... though he's had several hundred opportunites to do so. Maybe some day he will ... so please wake me from my nap when he does.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by boldruler

It is June. How many times did Bernardini race before last June? Who cares what happens until October at the earliest. If you are talking KY Derby in June of the 2yr old year, you have zero credibility.

I may be wrong but I don't think anyone WAS talking about the KY Derby. Oracle was talking about how these horses were going to do in the 2yo stakes races, not how they would do at 3.

Originally Posted by miraja2

I may be wrong but I don't think anyone WAS talking about the KY Derby. Oracle was talking about how these horses were going to do in the 2yo stakes races, not how they would do at 3.

I think it was his "Thats the kind of debut that gets people plotting a derby course in June of his 2yo year. Thast how good he was." that went a little overboard. I am sure plenty of people start thinking derby right after their 2yr old wins, but most derby horses aren't coming out of June races.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by boldruler

It is June. How many times did Bernardini race before last June? Who cares what happens until October at the earliest. If you are talking KY Derby in June of the 2yr old year, you have zero credibility.

Some of us like to pick out good talented two year olds, and see how they fair there three year old season. It is a game. I like picking out the best horses before they actually become the best horses. By the way, the Sanford Stakes is next month.

A horse named Afleet Alex won the Sanford a few years ago, and look how he turned out.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Some of us like to pick out good talented two year olds, and see how they fair there three year old season. It is a game. I like picking out the best horses before they actually become the best horses. By the way, the Sanford Stakes is next month.

A horse named Afleet Alex won the Sanford a few years ago, and look how he turned out.

Alex also broke his maiden in June. But don't go using historical facts and data here, people get very offended by these things.

[packerbacker7964]

I hate these races they run at Churchill for the baby's because the outside horses have a huge bias against them. How many of these horses running these sprints go on for bigger and better things? I've heard that the classic trainer say it takes months to get the go,go,go out of them atfer the sales to get too settle down. I'd like to train my horses on long,uphill jogs that get longer and longer on the grass. I think that's what would build stamia in them. But what do I know?

[Togacapper]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Lemme tell you what, I'll put my vision up gansit anyone's. You call ragozin and ask him what the top 4 figs are for 2Yo's this year, and i gurantee its these 4 horses. They are all incredible. The one today was frightening. Thats the kind of debut that gets people plotting a derby course in June of his 2yo year. Thast how good he was. WHy don't you watch teh replay and crunch the numbers and get back to me on that one with a mea culpa.

Oracle your classic dude..Good post