Norman gets six-month suspension

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ELA

In all due respect, you are way off here; on many levels.

Eric

What am I getting wrong? Please fill me in.

[ELA]

I wouldn't even know where to start. Just for starters -- it was and still is Steve Assmusen's barn, as a business. It's his business, his operation, his equiptment, his toothbrush that they use to apply hoof dressing -- everything is his. He got suspended. He still owns the business. He was the one who put Blasi there and gave him the "job" so to speak. Also, it's not 10% period. Ask any trainer if they are "keeping" the entire 10%. Especially in an operation this size.

So, who do you think the owners are paying their bills to? Prior to the suspension let's say the owners were paying their bills to the "Steve Assmusen Stable" or some corporate business name (I don't know because I don't have horses with him). So all of a sudden -- Scott Blasi opens up a new business and is geared up, 100% ready to hit the ground running -- payroll, workers comp insurance, liability insurance, health insurance, and the so many more things that a multi-million dollar business needs. I have paid training bills to suspended trainers. The bills are paid to the very same entity at the very same address and the very same person (stamp) endorsed the check when it was deposited.

Your example is very different.

Eric

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ELA

I wouldn't even know where to start. It was and still is Steve Assmusen's barn. It's his business, his operation, his equiptment, his toothbrush that they use to apply hoof dressing -- everything is his. He got suspended. He still owns the business. He was the one who put Blasi there and gave him the "job" so to speak. Also, it's not 10% period. Ask any trainer if they are "keeping" the entire 10%. Especially in an operation this size.

So, who do you think the owners are paying their bills to? Prior to the suspension let's say the owners were paying their bills to the "Steve Assmusen Stable" or some corporate business name (I don't know because I don't have horses with him). So all of a sudden -- Scott Blasi opens up a new business and is geared up, 100% ready to hit the ground running -- payroll, workers comp insurance, liability insurance, health insurance, and the so many more things that a multi-million dollar business needs. I have paid training bills to suspended trainers. The bills are paid to the very same entity at the very same address and the very same person (stamp) endorsed the check when it was deposited.

Your example is very different.

Eric

You are right that it's not 10%. Most trainers now charge either 12% or even 13%. The extra few percentage points are for the groom, the assistant, etc.

I agree with you that the business is Asmussen's business and they will still use all of his equipment. But as far as I know, the terms of these suspensions are that the trainer is not entitled to profit from the business during the suspension. That is the point.

By the way, since Asmussen's business is a bit of a family affair, he is obviously still in daily conatct with his family. His family is obviously in daily contact with Blasi, so I would have to imagine that at the very least, Asmussen has indirect daily contact with Blasi.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You are right that it's not 10%. Most trainers now charge either 12% or even 13%. The extra few percentage points are for the groom, the assistant, etc.

The trainer gets 10% (the only way you do make money cause day rates don't cut it) then you have stable stakes ...which goes to the assist trainer, groom, gallop boy/girl and sometimes depending on the operation the hot walker may get some. I've often found that the help makes more than the trainer... I'm not kidding!!! Peanut Butter and Jelly are staples in a trainers home!!!

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Samm

The trainer gets 10% (the only way you do make money cause day rates don't cut it) then you have stable stakes ...which goes to the assist trainer, groom, gallop boy/girl and sometimes depending on the operation the hot walker may get some. I've often found that the help makes more than the trainer... I'm not kidding!!! Peanut Butter and Jelly are staples in a trainers home!!!

Trainers will always tell you that they don't make a profit on day rates. This is somewhat misleading. It is true that they are not making a profit after all the expenses are paid. What they don't tell you is that the expenses not only include the salaries of all the employees, but they include the trainer's salary too. The trainer's salary is included in the expenses. The trainer gets a salary. They forget to mention that when they say that they don't make anything on day money.

There are plenty of trainers out here that have 15-20 horses and win maybe 10 races a year. The total purses for all their horses is around $150,000(10% of that is only $15,000). Some of these trainers have a wife and two kids. They have a nice car and a decent house. Do you think they're surviving on $15,000 a year? Of course not. They are taking a salary of about $50,000 a year, in addition to the 10% of the purse money. So while it is true that they spend the whole $85 a day per horse, part of that money they spend is going to their salary. So it's very misleading when they say that they don't make anything off the day money.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Alright, I finally talked to my friend at the CHRB. I was totally wrong about the trainer not being able to communicate with the barn. I could have sworn that he told me that a couple of months ago, but I must have misunderstood him.

Here is what he told me about bank records: He said that the CHRB has invetigators and they will try to stay on top of the money trail and make sure the trainer is not getting paid. They don't actually subpoena the bank records. They ask the trainer to voluntarily turn them over. If the trainer refuses, then the Board can refuse to give him his license back. Then the trainer could take them to court if it got that far. But usually the trainers will cooperate and give the board their bank records for every month during the suspension.

With regard to the poster that said that the owners would still make their checks payable to the suspended trainer, even if he was serving a 6 months suspension, my friend told me that he highly doubts this. In the case of Asmussen, during the suspension the owners would be writing their checks every month to Blasi, not Asmussen.

[Scav]

I am sure Blasi and others (he has several contingents across the country) have check writing power as they are part of his business

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Alright, I finally talked to my friend at the CHRB. I was totally wrong about the trainer not being able to communicate with the barn. I could have sworn that he told me that a couple of months ago, but I must have misunderstood him.

Here is what he told me about bank records: He said that the CHRB has invetigators and they will try to stay on top of the money trail and make sure the trainer is not getting paid. They don't actually subpoena the bank records. They ask the trainer to voluntarily turn them over. If the trainer refuses, then the Board can refuse to give him his license back. Then the trainer could take them to court if it got that far. But usually the trainers will cooperate and give the board their bank records for every month during the suspension.

With regard to the poster that said that the owners would still make their checks payable to the suspended trainer, even if he was serving a 6 months suspension, my friend told me that he highly doubts this. In the case of Asmussen, during the suspension the owners would be writing their checks every month to Blasi, not Asmussen.

Richi,
No racing board has any right at all to go after bank or phone records of any trainer.
Violation of a suspension IS NOT a criminal offense, not by a long shot.
This is the United States, and racing boards do not have rights that supercede those guranteed to all citizens.
Lets put it this way, if someone attempted to pull you over, and said they were with the CHRB, LOL!!!, they would be breaking the law.
They are not boards with the powers of Federal powers like the SEC. They have no authority whatsoever off the racetrack, none. And any attempt to breach the privacy of citizens off he track by attempting to acess their personal records would be met with lawsuits or arrests of the indivuals who attempted to illegally gain acess.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Trainers will always tell you that they don't make a profit on day rates. This is somewhat misleading. It is true that they are not making a profit after all the expenses are paid. What they don't tell you is that the expenses not only include the salaries of all the employees, but they include the trainer's salary too. The trainer's salary is included in the expenses. The trainer gets a salary. They forget to mention that when they say that they don't make anything on day money.

There are plenty of trainers out here that have 15-20 horses and win maybe 10 races a year. The total purses for all their horses is around $150,000(10% of that is only $15,000). Some of these trainers have a wife and two kids. They have a nice car and a decent house. Do you think they're surviving on $15,000 a year? Of course not. They are taking a salary of about $50,000 a year, in addition to the 10% of the purse money. So while it is true that they spend the whole $85 a day per horse, part of that money they spend is going to their salary. So it's very misleading when they say that they don't make anything off the day money.

At $85 a day -- you have to be talking about a major circuit. I have a high % trainer in NY and he is charging $85 a day. There is so much more to this and it's an exercise in futility to attempt to have a holistic discussion. Even if you are correct, and I am not saying you are, because not every trainer in North America is running their business like you say they are, there is still a misnomer that the trainer gets to keep the entire 10%. Some may. No arguement there. However, due to operations and structure, some don't. Also, the alleged $50k in salary, yeah, that's the deal breaker -- in the NY/Metro area -- covers the mortgage, real estate taxes, (and maybe the nice car or a portion thereof) on the "decent" house where this hypothetical trainer lives and sends his hypothetical kids.

I think the entire discussion is taking place in this trainers home town -- "Fantasy Land". LOL.

Eric

[ELA]

In reality, this entire conversation comes down to a very simple issue -- the specific terms and conditions of a suspension. I am sure this differs between jurisdictions. If there is a criminal aspect to the suspension then I am sure it would take on an entirely different size and complexion.

Eric

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ELA

At $85 a day -- you have to be talking about a major circuit. I have a high % trainer in NY and he is charging $85 a day. There is so much more to this and it's an exercise in futility to attempt to have a holistic discussion. Even if you are correct, and I am not saying you are, because not every trainer in North America is running their business like you say they are, there is still a misnomer that the trainer gets to keep the entire 10%. Some may. No arguement there. However, due to operations and structure, some don't. Also, the alleged $50k in salary, yeah, that's the deal breaker -- in the NY/Metro area -- covers the mortgage, real estate taxes, (and maybe the nice car or a portion thereof) on the "decent" house where this hypothetical trainer lives and sends his hypothetical kids.

I think the entire discussion is taking place in this trainers home town -- "Fantasy Land". LOL.

Eric

I was talking about Southern California. I'm not sure what you are saying. There are plenty of trainers not only in Southern California, but on small circuits whose horses are making under $300,000 a year. Do you think these guys are making under $30,000 a year? If you think they get less than 10%, then you are confirming what I am saying. If they make less than 10% and they aren't taking a salary, then how do you think they make a living?

It is obviously more expensive to train out here than other places. We have three trainers out here right now, one charges $100 a day, one charges $90 a day, and the other charges $80 a day. The one who charges $100 a day has a night watchman, so his expenses are a little higher.

Anyway, I know several trainers out here and I know approximately how much money they make a year on average. The bottom line is that most of these guys make around $10 a day ( give or take a couple of dollars) per horse. That is where their salary comes from. So if a trainer out here has 40 horses, he's probably making around $140,000 a year($400 a day, 7 days a week) just on the day money. If his horses earn $1 million for the year, then he makes an additional $90,000-$100,000 for a grand total of somewhere between $230,000-$240,000 a year. My trainers charge between 12-13%, so the groom, assistant trainer, etc. get a piece of the purse and the trainer is still left with close to 10%. Since the exercise rider, foreman, etc. may get a piece of the purse, the trainer's share could drop down to around 9%.

The bottom line is that its extremely hard for any trainer to stay in the business for an extended period of time at major tracks on purse winning %'s alone.
What trainers really build their finances or retirements on are commissions from selling a horse(Most trainers receive 5-10% when they sell one privately) and moreso on breeding rights in stallions or the 5-1% they get from the owner if the horse is sold as a stallion(most owners do pay this, not all(like one guy I know), but most).
Guys like Zito, Pletcher, Mott, Baffert, etc build up these breeding rights which can be sold each year or used.
A guy like Zito has a breeding right to Unbrdidled's Song(trained him at the end of his career) and each year he can sell that on the market or do a foal share with someone who has a mare and then race or sell the foal.
Guy like Pletcher will soon be making more money on his breeding rights than he will on the purses, and when you sell a horse like Ashado for over 9 mill, its customary to give the trainer who trained the horse 5%.
If you train a horse that the owners sell outright as a sire, its customary to give the trainer 5% of the money received.
Simply living on purse money at the highest level of racing is a non stop rat race thats hard to take.

[ELA]

Rather than debate issues where we are counting other people's money, I for one would like to get some clarification on the "suspension" issue. The terms and conditions of the suspension will dictate how a person has to abide. As I said, this will vary from state to state.

So at least we know, in CA, the suspended trainer can communicate with whoever he wants. No phone record incriminations or anything of the like. I am sure if this positive test was elevated to a criminal matter then the circumstances would change. However, as one person pointed out, a positive test is not a criminal matter -- at least not initially. Anyway, I checked with local counsel and the same applies in NY and NJ.

I would think that the terms and conditions not only spell out what the trainer can and cannot do to in order to abide, but it would also spell out what the governing body can and cannot do.

Thanks in advance to anyone who is able to clarify some of these issues. Somewhat ironic -- we need someone who has been suspended to clarify this for us, LOL.

Eric

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

The bottom line is that its extremely hard for any trainer to stay in the business for an extended period of time at major tracks on purse winning %'s alone.
What trainers really build their finances or retirements on are commissions from selling a horse(Most trainers receive 5-10% when they sell one privately) and moreso on breeding rights in stallions or the 5-1% they get from the owner if the horse is sold as a stallion(most owners do pay this, not all(like one guy I know), but most).
Guys like Zito, Pletcher, Mott, Baffert, etc build up these breeding rights which can be sold each year or used.
A guy like Zito has a breeding right to Unbrdidled's Song(trained him at the end of his career) and each year he can sell that on the market or do a foal share with someone who has a mare and then race or sell the foal.
Guy like Pletcher will soon be making more money on his breeding rights than he will on the purses, and when you sell a horse like Ashado for over 9 mill, its customary to give the trainer who trained the horse 5%.
If you train a horse that the owners sell outright as a sire, its customary to give the trainer 5% of the money received.
Simply living on purse money at the highest level of racing is a non stop rat race thats hard to take.

There is only an extremely small percentage of trainers that are making money on breeding rights. You are talking about way less than even 5% of the trainers when you include all the tracks across the country. There are plenty of trainers out there who have nothing but $20,000 claiming horses. At some of the really small tracks, it's more like nothing but $5,000 claiming horses.

Anyway, I would estimate that well over 95% of trainers make the majority of their money from their salary(which comes from day money), rather than from purses. Even on a big circuit like the Southern California circuit, I would estimate that over 80% of the trainers make more money from their salary than from purses.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Trainers will always tell you that they don't make a profit on day rates. This is somewhat misleading. It is true that they are not making a profit after all the expenses are paid. What they don't tell you is that the expenses not only include the salaries of all the employees, but they include the trainer's salary too. The trainer's salary is included in the expenses. The trainer gets a salary. They forget to mention that when they say that they don't make anything on day money.

There are plenty of trainers out here that have 15-20 horses and win maybe 10 races a year. The total purses for all their horses is around $150,000(10% of that is only $15,000). Some of these trainers have a wife and two kids. They have a nice car and a decent house. Do you think they're surviving on $15,000 a year? Of course not. They are taking a salary of about $50,000 a year, in addition to the 10% of the purse money. So while it is true that they spend the whole $85 a day per horse, part of that money they spend is going to their salary. So it's very misleading when they say that they don't make anything off the day money.

So you want trainers to work for free?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So you want trainers to work for free?

No, not at all. I have no problem with trainers taking a salary. Most trainers could not survive without taking a salary.

All I was saying was that many people that aren't in the indusrty and even a few in the industry, don't realize that trainers take a salary. People hear trainers say that they don't make anything on the day money, and some people take that to mean that the only money that trainers make is from purses. These people don't realize that the trainer gets a salary.