Clemens: BigFATLIar

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It is beyond disgraceful that millions of dollars and tremendous amounts of time are being spent to try to destroy a few players reputations.

No,what's disgraceful is people who are so bankrupt inside that they think any means to an end is acceptable.These are thieves.These were illegal methods used to beat their opponents.Which means they make more money,and the people they beat make less money. You can make it seem tame,but they are criminals.Sorry,but you're simply lacking in ethics,and you've shown these Machiavelian attitudes consistently.Hank Aaron should be the home run king,and Bonds should be in a minimum security prison(like any other cheating white collar criminal.)The reason people cheat like this is because they see people get away with cheating. If congress wants to go after white collar criminals,then it's probably because others in society refuse to enforce the laws these people broke.Simple as that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

No,what's disgraceful is people who are so bankrupt inside that they think any means to an end is acceptable.These are thieves.These were illegal methods used to beat their opponents.Which means they make more money,and the people they beat make less money. You can make it seem tame,but they are criminals.Sorry,but you're simply lacking in ethics,and you've shown these Machiavelian attitudes consistently.Hank Aaron should be the home run king,and Bonds should be in a minimum security prison(like any other cheating white collar criminal.)The reason people cheat like this is because they see people get away with cheating. If congress wants to go after white collar criminals,then it's probably because others in society refuse to enforce the laws these people broke.Simple as that.

They may have used illegal methods but the problem is that only a few individuals are being targeted and surprise, suprise it is the big names. The court of Public opinion has spoken about PED's in sports and based on the publics reaction, they seemingly dont care that much. They still go to the games, watch them on TV and buy the merchandise. This is not white collar crime. This is a private institution being investigated by itself with government assistance. That in itself is troubling. That the government is willing to use its powers to help regulate a private business. If the govt wanted to go after this issue they should have sent FBI and FDA agents in against the distributors of the drugs. That is where the crime was committed. Shameful grandstanding when nothing can really be accomplished is a joke.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Honestly what can baseball do to either of these guys anyway? Not to defend these players for lying under oath or in general but why is the govt so concerned about Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds? Shouldnt they be more concern with the people who are illegally suppling the drugs? It is beyond disgraceful that millions of dollars and tremendous amounts of time are being spent to try to destroy a few players reputations. The perjury thing aside, what if Clemens suddenly had just said I took HGH a few times like Pettite did, I'm sorry and I will plead my 5th amendment right for any other questions? Then what? Just like the Congress is looking into the NFL spygate case. What laws were broken there? Where is the harm or danger to the public? Does the result of a football game really matter so much that Congress needs to look into this? More money pissed away because some dried up old Eagles fan is still bitter about the Super Bowl? What can be done anyway? Declare the Eagles the winner on DQ? Makes you wish someone would go to Capital Hill with a gun and fire away on these guys so that maybe they would snap back into the reality of what they are supposed to be doing and stop the grandstanding.

i don't know what baseball could do. when clemens and others used, were there rules against it? or just generic rules against illegal meds? if the latter is the case, then they broke the rules. i don't know what baseball could do then.
as for congress, like i said above, i don't think it's worth their time. i think it's absolutely ridiculous that they are having these sessions--nothing more than photo ops for the congressmen.
i wrote a sarcastic letter the other day to arlen specter, who is wanting to investigate why the video the pats had was destroyed.
who the hell cares?!

[King Glorious]

Cannon, I hope that you realize that you are fighting a worthless fight here. Some people can't seem to get past the fact that we understand that what those guys did was wrong but that doesn't mean it makes sense for Congress to be involved here. As you said, and it's the same question I asked a while ago.....what would they be doing if Clemens had admitted from the start that he did it? They wouldn't have a thing to do. They don't have anything to do now. They can't prosecute guys that did it so what is the point? Scuds is saying that Congress should go after these criminals but does he realize that Congress is only going after the guys that DENIED using the stuff. The ones that are the ADMITTED CRIMINALS, the guys like Vina and Pettitte, they aren't the ones Congress is going after. So why can't Scuds understand that? They aren't going after the guys that are guilty because there is nothing they can do about it and since there is nothing they can do about it, why are they wasting their time and taxpayer money to find out if Roger did something that probably 70-80% of the public already believes he did? Why are they wasting taxpayer money to find out if Bonds lied? They know they can't get Bonds for actually using. This stuff is all so stupid. Scuds is saying that Bonds should be in prison. But Congress can't put him in prison for using the stuff. They can't put Pettitte in prison for using it. They can't put Clemens in for using. They can't put ANYBODY in for using. So what was the point of the Mitchell investigation in the first place?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Cannon, I hope that you realize that you are fighting a worthless fight here. Some people can't seem to get past the fact that we understand that what those guys did was wrong but that doesn't mean it makes sense for Congress to be involved here. As you said, and it's the same question I asked a while ago.....what would they be doing if Clemens had admitted from the start that he did it? They wouldn't have a thing to do. They don't have anything to do now. They can't prosecute guys that did it so what is the point? Scuds is saying that Congress should go after these criminals but does he realize that Congress is only going after the guys that DENIED using the stuff. The ones that are the ADMITTED CRIMINALS, the guys like Vina and Pettitte, they aren't the ones Congress is going after. So why can't Scuds understand that? They aren't going after the guys that are guilty because there is nothing they can do about it and since there is nothing they can do about it, why are they wasting their time and taxpayer money to find out if Roger did something that probably 70-80% of the public already believes he did? Why are they wasting taxpayer money to find out if Bonds lied? They know they can't get Bonds for actually using. This stuff is all so stupid. Scuds is saying that Bonds should be in prison. But Congress can't put him in prison for using the stuff. They can't put Pettitte in prison for using it. They can't put Clemens in for using. They can't put ANYBODY in for using. So what was the point of the Mitchell investigation in the first place?

A PR attempt to deflect the spotlight off of Bud and the owners who let this happen unfettered for years. At least the NFL put in rules, easy as they may be to beat, they still had rules when baseball was like the wild west.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't know what baseball could do. when clemens and others used, were there rules against it? or just generic rules against illegal meds? if the latter is the case, then they broke the rules. i don't know what baseball could do then.
as for congress, like i said above, i don't think it's worth their time. i think it's absolutely ridiculous that they are having these sessions--nothing more than photo ops for the congressmen.
i wrote a sarcastic letter the other day to arlen specter, who is wanting to investigate why the video the pats had was destroyed.
who the hell cares?!

Mr. "present" Arlen Specter has been a grandstanding embarassment forever. He's still getting grease for his single bullet theory. The RINOs have taken over.

I can't understand how those fool in PA keep voting him back in...
but then I can't understand how Dick Durbin keeps keeping on in IL

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Cannon, makes sense for Congress to be involved here. As you said, and it's the same question I asked a while ago.....what would they be doing if Clemens had admitted from the start that he did it? They wouldn't have a thing to do. They don't have anything to do now. They can't prosecute guys that did it so what is the point? Scuds is saying that Congress should go after these criminals but does he realize that Congress is only going after the guys that DENIED using the stuff. The ones that are the ADMITTED CRIMINALS, the guys like Vina and Pettitte, they aren't the ones Congress is going after. So why can't Scuds understand that? They aren't going after the guys that are guilty because there is nothing they can do about it and since there is nothing they can do about it, why are they wasting their time and taxpayer money to find out if Roger did something that probably 70-80% of the public already believes he did? Why are they wasting taxpayer money to find out if Bonds lied? They know they can't get Bonds for actually using. This stuff is all so stupid. Scuds is saying that Bonds should be in prison. But Congress can't put him in prison for using the stuff. They can't put Pettitte in prison for using it. They can't put Clemens in for using. They can't put ANYBODY in for using. So what was the point of the Mitchell investigation in the first place?

You act as if this is a new thing. There are congressional investigations into all kinds of crap other than sports that you would consider a waste of time and money. I will again state why congress thinks it necessary (I dont necessarily know because some of the other crap they have investigated I deem much more worthless)
1. Baseball's antitrust status which congress could easily take away if federal laws are being broken. They enjoy a special business privilege (possibly unfair), go back and look at these debates.

2. It first started with BALCO investigation which was a company also linked to Olympic tampering, a Federally funded endevour. Links between trainers and BAlco led to baseball. Then of course it was time to take the stage for the senators and congressmen.

3. Kids are doing this stuff on a high school level, it has crept into school. Our damn state is now having to spend taxpayer money on testing. This trickled in from pro sports to college, college to High School. My state with a REPUBLICAN governor has deemed this a health risk. I would much rather a kid who is still developing physically, smoke pot a few times, than mix HGH with steriods one time.

4. ANd NOW PERJURY. What is it that you do not get about Perjury?

Arlen Specter little foray is kind of strange.
Probably a power trip sort of thing.
But this
guy is of huge importance on the justice committe.
If Arlen Specter was not around, we would still have
a Justice Dept. that was a complete and utter joke,
and the laughing stock of all other countries who actually
look to the US for insights into well thought out law.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

So what was the point of the Mitchell investigation in the first place?

To shine the light on white collar crime.This will always be political,because (by their very nature) conservatives don't seem to have a problem if the rich and powerful cheat.They only recognize crime being committed with weapons of violence.If you can steal quietly,then they don't seem to care.They care about violence,but very little about ethics.The Congress must have done something correct if you 2 are all upset about these cheaters being exposed.This is a public exposure of white collar liars,and cheats.This is white collar crime in such a pure cheating form.How can it not be? They cheated to get an advantage in the work place.That means they got paid better than somebody who didn't cheat.That means they stole(like any other white-collar criminal.)The only thing keeping you from seeing that is that you like them.You say they can't be punished? Oh,they are indeed being punished.You wouldn't be coming on here bitching about it if you didn't think it was punishment.

[King Glorious]

The only ones being punished, if they are indeed punished at all, are the ones that denied using. The ones that admitted, they are being lauded as honest men who came forward with the truth and nothing will happen to them. How backwards is that? The guys that did use are let off the hook and the guys that say they didn't or didn't knowingly, are the ones being prosecuted. You don't see that as ass backwards? Andy Pettitte is an admitted cheater. He came clean when his name was in the Mitchell report and everyone says "what a standup guy he is". Only he WASN'T. If he was so standup, he would have admitted it BEFORE the report. Then even when he admitted his use, he STILL wasn't being standup, as he later admitted that he used it more than he originally said, admitting that he got it from his father. But with all of this admittance, what is Congress going to do to him? Nothing. They are going after the guy that most people believe did it but until actually proven, may not have. If Congress wants to do something, go after the guys that actually used it. That's when we would be getting somewhere.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

The only ones being punished, if they are indeed punished at all, are the ones that denied using. The ones that admitted, they are being lauded as honest men who came forward with the truth and nothing will happen to them. How backwards is that?

Unfortunately,nothing is going to happen to ballplayers that cheated to gain financial advantage in the work place.That's a sad example of our society's lack of interest in ethics.We will put a guy in jail for stealing a pair of boots,but not for stealing millions of dollars in a non-violent way.There is very little demand to go after white collar criminals who are rich and famous.If,however,they lie under oath about it,then it's out of the court of public opinion.It's then not a case of white collar crime.It's perjury,and the judicial system does punish that crime.So,the key(if you're rich and famous) is not to lie under oath about it.Clemons' mistake was to try to get out of this "in total," and the only way he could do it was to go under oath and try to dispute it.He punished himself by trying to totally get out of this.He couldn't take it being known that he was a cheat.The others could handle it.His ego could not handle it. So,he cut himself more than the others got cut.Same with this Martha bitch.She couldn't take losing even a lil,and so she cut herself even more than they ever could have cut her.The difference is she didn't have GEEDUBBYA as a friend.So,she did time,and Roger won't(Geedubbya will pardon this family friend.)

[Danzig]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3156305

that article is about andy pettite. he claims to have used it in '02, hgh wasn't banned til '05. claims it was to recover from injury....

i would think tho that anyone who used it after it was banned ought to be in trouble. but before the ban? how do you handle that?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

1. Baseball's antitrust status which congress could easily take away if federal laws are being broken. They enjoy a special business privilege (possibly unfair), go back and look at these debates.

It is funny that this is mentioned but it really isnt that important anymore. First off Congress would have to overturn 3 seperate Supreme Court decisions all in favor of granting baseball an excemption because they have never felt that it violates the Sherman Act and does not deem baseball as interstate commerce as defined by the Sherman Act.

The truth is that anyone is free to start a baseball league to compete with MLB and as shown by the USFL vs NFL case the courts will not hold the leagues responsible if any such leagues are attempted and fail.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It is funny that this is mentioned but it really isnt that important anymore. First off Congress would have to overturn 3 seperate Supreme Court decisions all in favor of granting baseball an excemption because they have never felt that it violates the Sherman Act and does not deem baseball as interstate commerce as defined by the Sherman Act.

The truth is that anyone is free to start a baseball league to compete with MLB and as shown by the USFL vs NFL case the courts will not hold the leagues responsible if any such leagues are attempted and fail.

congress doesn't overturn supreme court decisions. they just pass new laws.

you're correct that the exception for baseball exists because of a 1922 supreme court decision and not an act of congress. but the decision itself leaves it to congress to clarify the issue.

baseball might be free to explore actions against a competitor league that the nfl couldn't because it's exempt from the sherman act. so i'm not sure how the usfl example supports your point.

there have been occasional attempts in congress to address this. john conyers introduced the most recent bill.

there is no real reason that the nfl (or any other league) should be subject to the sherman act and not baseball.

you probably wouldn't see any new major league in the wake of the removal of the exemption. but you would eventually see a different minor league system not tied in directly with major league teams. the minor league system as it exists couldn't be legal absent the exemption.

that'll probably happen just after clemens admits he perjured himself.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3156305

that article is about andy pettite. he claims to have used it in '02, hgh wasn't banned til '05. claims it was to recover from injury....

i would think tho that anyone who used it after it was banned ought to be in trouble. but before the ban? how do you handle that?

What do you mean handle it? I don't think they are gunna do anything to punish players unless they perjured themselves.By using something that was illegal to use(and others couldn't legally use,) he did try to gain an edge over other players with the same injury.I totally disagree with him when he says he didn't try to gain an edge with it.He tried to heal quicker with an illegal substance.Why do you think he got it from a trainer instead of his doctor? This is not a specific targeted hormone.It wasn't just going to work on his elbow.It was going to have other effects,and the trainer said Andy had asked about using it before he ever hurt his elbow.

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

congress doesn't overturn supreme court decisions. they just pass new laws.

you're correct that the exception for baseball exists because of a 1922 supreme court decision and not an act of congress. but the decision itself leaves it to congress to clarify the issue.

baseball might be free to explore actions against a competitor league that the nfl couldn't because it's exempt from the sherman act. so i'm not sure how the usfl example supports your point.

there have been occasional attempts in congress to address this. john conyers introduced the most recent bill.

there is no real reason that the nfl (or any other league) should be subject to the sherman act and not baseball.

you probably wouldn't see any new major league in the wake of the removal of the exemption. but you would eventually see a different minor league system not tied in directly with major league teams. the minor league system as it exists couldn't be legal absent the exemption.

that'll probably happen just after clemens admits he perjured himself.

I did not say it was likely,
it has been used as a threat
however. Baseball is so incredibly lucrative
that hell freezes over before there is any change.

The bolded above has been mentioned before
and more often now. If the public really cared
about the exemption...no way.
The players, owners themselves
would not ever try to threaten this as the money flows.

No Al Davis types.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

baseball might be free to explore actions against a competitor league that the nfl couldn't because it's exempt from the sherman act. so i'm not sure how the usfl example supports your point.

Clue me in to the competitor league that baseball is worried about? The USFL example fits my point because if the anti trust exemption was dropped a group may try to start a league with the sole purpose of eventually suing baseball for having a monopoly and either get awarded damages or get expansion teams that are now worth hundreds of millions adopted by MLB. That is what the USFL was and did.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

you probably wouldn't see any new major league in the wake of the removal of the exemption. but you would eventually see a different minor league system not tied in directly with major league teams. the minor league system as it exists couldn't be legal absent the exemption.

Then explain how the NHL and NBA can have minor leagues set up in a similar fashion without the antitrust exemption?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

What do you mean handle it? I don't think they are gunna do anything to punish players unless they perjured themselves.By using something that was illegal to use(and others couldn't legally use,) he did try to gain an edge over other players with the same injury.I totally disagree with him when he says he didn't try to gain an edge with it.He tried to heal quicker with an illegal substance.Why do you think he got it from a trainer instead of his doctor? This is not a specific targeted hormone.It wasn't just going to work on his elbow.It was going to have other effects,and the trainer said Andy had asked about using it before he ever hurt his elbow.

i see what you mean about pettite, that makes sense as far as trying to gain an edge.
as far as handling it, i don't know what they'll do-or could do. my about handling it had to do with those who used pre-ban. if MLB had no rules against it at that time, how can they enforce something on those players that wasn't yet enforceable?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Then explain how the NHL and NBA can have minor leagues set up in a similar fashion without the antitrust exemption?

So they are exempt?

I thought baseball was unique in its exemption.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

So they are exempt?

I thought baseball was unique in its exemption.

Baseball is and God was saying that if they lost the excemption that the minor league systmem would be affected. However I dont think that is true and it seems that the other leagues minor leagues would be proof of that since those leagues dont have the exemption.