Unless the Packers score 30 points or more tonight...

[ateamstupid]

The fact is, to be a great team, you have to be able to win both shootouts and pillow fights. If the Pats can be held under 20 points, which is clearly possible for a real defense (see Jets, Ravens), they'll lose. Every time. I've never seen so many threads about such a mediocre team. It was annoying when they were good. Now it's just sad.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Defense wins championships. Which is why all of those high powered Randy Moss offenses have a total of zero rings.

It's very early, but if you look at the Pats realistically they are going to need to drastically improve on defense to be a factor as the season wears on. Considering they have little talent on d, I just don't see how that is going to happen.

They'll score points in bunches, but you have to be able to stop teams also. They haven't shown they are able to do that.

2009 Saints 25th Defense 1st Offense
2008 Steelers 1st Defense 22nd Offense
2007 Giants 7th Defense 16th Offense
2006 Colts 21st Defense 3rd Offense
2005 Steelers 4th Defense 15th Offense
2004 Patriots 9th Defense 7th Offense
2003 Patriots 7th Defense 17th Offense
2002 Bucs 1st Defense 24th Offense
2001 Patriots 24th Defense 19th Offense
2000 Ravens 2nd Defense 16th Offense

Couple things to note- Defense is important but not the be all-end all. The more the rules change the more it means less than offense rather than more- note that if the Steelers don't pull off a great drive with a minute left in the SB, it's the 25th, 19th, 7th, and 21st ranked defenses over the last 4 years. Not exactly a stellar defensive group.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

2009 Saints 25th Defense 1st Offense
2008 Steelers 1st Defense 22nd Offense
2007 Giants 7th Defense 16th Offense
2006 Colts 21st Defense 3rd Offense
2005 Steelers 4th Defense 15th Offense
2004 Patriots 9th Defense 7th Offense
2003 Patriots 7th Defense 17th Offense
2002 Bucs 1st Defense 24th Offense
2001 Patriots 24th Defense 19th Offense
2000 Ravens 2nd Defense 16th Offense

Couple things to note- Defense is important but not the be all-end all. The more the rules change the more it means less than offense rather than more- note that if the Steelers don't pull off a great drive with a minute left in the SB, it's the 25th, 19th, 7th, and 21st ranked defenses over the last 4 years. Not exactly a stellar defensive group.

I dont agree that defense isnt still extremely important. overall rankings in football are flawed because teams with great offenses strike quickly and often which means that the defense is on the field longer than expected and often with a big lead they play softer, stop blitzing, use zone coverage, etc. Of the teams listed outside of the flukey 2001 Pats, the Super Bowl winners almost always have a top 10 defense OR they are the top 3 offenses in the game. 70% of winners were barely in the top 15 offenses.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by philcski

2009 Saints 25th Defense 1st Offense
2008 Steelers 1st Defense 22nd Offense
2007 Giants 7th Defense 16th Offense
2006 Colts 21st Defense 3rd Offense
2005 Steelers 4th Defense 15th Offense
2004 Patriots 9th Defense 7th Offense
2003 Patriots 7th Defense 17th Offense
2002 Bucs 1st Defense 24th Offense
2001 Patriots 24th Defense 19th Offense
2000 Ravens 2nd Defense 16th Offense

Couple things to note- Defense is important but not the be all-end all. The more the rules change the more it means less than offense rather than more- note that if the Steelers don't pull off a great drive with a minute left in the SB, it's the 25th, 19th, 7th, and 21st ranked defenses over the last 4 years. Not exactly a stellar defensive group.

Your stats seem to prove Hoss' point. 3 defenses 15th or lower won, as opposed to 7 in the top 10. 7 offenses 15th or lower won, while 3 in the top 10 won.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Your stats seem to prove Hoss' point. 3 defenses 15th or lower won, as opposed to 7 in the top 10. 7 offenses 15th or lower won, while 3 in the top 10 won.

I'm not disagreeing that a defense is still important- I said that it is, and I think that upgrading a defense allows a team to be competitive quicker. However, I'm suggesting that there has a been a fundamental shift in the rules over the past 5 years (pass interference called tighter, less ability to attack the QB, more protection of the ballcarrier with horse collar tackles disallowed, no more 5 yard facemask (all 15), no more "football move" required on catches [except, apparently, in the end zone Calvin Johnson], "defenseless receiver" rule, etc), which has allowed weak defensive teams to be serious contenders, and win championships.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by philcski

I'm not disagreeing that a defense is still important- I said that it is, and I think that upgrading a defense allows a team to be competitive quicker. However, I'm suggesting that there has a been a fundamental shift in the rules over the past 5 years (pass interference called tighter, less ability to attack the QB, more protection of the ballcarrier with horse collar tackles disallowed, no more 5 yard facemask (all 15), no more "football move" required on catches [except, apparently, in the end zone Calvin Johnson], "defenseless receiver" rule, etc), which has allowed weak defensive teams to be serious contenders, and win championships.

Of course..pretty obvious.They fucl<ed with the game because offense brings in more money.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by philcski

2009 Saints 25th Defense 1st Offense
2008 Steelers 1st Defense 22nd Offense
2007 Giants 7th Defense 16th Offense
2006 Colts 21st Defense 3rd Offense
2005 Steelers 4th Defense 15th Offense
2004 Patriots 9th Defense 7th Offense
2003 Patriots 7th Defense 17th Offense
2002 Bucs 1st Defense 24th Offense
2001 Patriots 24th Defense 19th Offense
2000 Ravens 2nd Defense 16th Offense

Couple things to note- Defense is important but not the be all-end all. The more the rules change the more it means less than offense rather than more- note that if the Steelers don't pull off a great drive with a minute left in the SB, it's the 25th, 19th, 7th, and 21st ranked defenses over the last 4 years. Not exactly a stellar defensive group.

Couple things to note- I never said it was the be all-end all. Your stats prove how important having a good defense is. Of course there are exceptions, but you have to be able to stop your opposition. This is true for most of the major sports. Getting back the the crux of the thread, the Pats can't stop anyone right now. Because of this it's going to be extremely hard for them to make the playoffs.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Couple things to note- I never said it was the be all-end all. Your stats prove how important having a good defense is. Of course there are exceptions, but you have to be able to stop your opposition. This is true for most of the major sports. Getting back the the crux of the thread, the Pats can't stop anyone right now. Because of this it's going to be extremely hard for them to make the playoffs.

JUST GIVE THEM TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[philcski]

Originally Posted by clyde

Of course..pretty obvious.They fucl<ed with the game because offense brings in more money.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Couple things to note- I never said it was the be all-end all. Your stats prove how important having a good defense is. Of course there are exceptions, but you have to be able to stop your opposition. This is true for most of the major sports. Getting back the the crux of the thread, the Pats can't stop anyone right now. Because of this it's going to be extremely hard for them to make the playoffs.

"Defense wins championships" is saying "be all end all" in my opinion. Maybe that's not to the degree that you meant.

Because of their schedule, the Pats will probably make the playoffs (and lose in the first round.) They have three road games against Buffalo, Detroit, and Cleveland- which means they could lose a game at home and still be 10-6 which should be good enough. If they get one of Miami (unlikely), SD (possible), Pitt (very unlikely), Chicago (possible)- they are 11-5 and definitely in. Jets also have the same trifecta on the road which is huge for their chances of winning the division, because at this point all they need to do is keep pace with the tiebreakers in the pocket. Miami, on the other hand, gets trips to GB, CIN, BAL, OAK, NYJ, and NE left- so even with the two road wins in hand have only 1 game left where they will definitely be favored. And even in that game, Oakland is putrid but not Buf-Det-Cle bad. They are a missed chip shot from 2-1 right now. It would be tough for the AFC East to get both wild cards, because either Cincy, Balt, or Indy/Hou/Tenn will probably get one of them, so it's a 3 for 2.

[clyde]

With more rule changes than you mentioned ,ThePhilski......it's Defense wins titles a lot more than offense.


I'll take the best def. over the best off.... every time.

[Dahoss]

If given the choice of a top defense or a top offense what do you think most coaches would want?

[Scav]

I can't figure out if both these teams are just really bad or if the Bears really do have a chance this year.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

If given the choice of a top defense or a top offense what do you think most coaches would want?

I think all 32 head coaches would pick defense.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by clyde

With more rule changes than you mentioned ,ThePhilski......it's Defense wins titles a lot more than offense.


I'll take the best def. over the best off.... every time.

I also take best defense over best offense, even with the rule changes. If I were to pick a SB winner right now it would be the Steelers for that reason. But it certainly has opened up the opportunities to the 2009 Saints and 2006 Colts of the world.

Unfortunately, my team has chosen to take both the worst offense and one of the worst defenses.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Scav

I can't figure out if both these teams are just really bad or if the Bears really do have a chance this year.

They both suck.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Scav

I think all 32 head coaches would pick defense.

Of course they would. Because defense wins championships.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by philcski

I also take best defense over best offense, even with the rule changes. If I were to pick a SB winner right now it would be the Steelers for that reason. But it certainly has opened up the opportunities to the 2009 Saints and 2006 Colts of the world.

Unfortunately, my team has chosen to take both the worst offense and one of the worst defenses.

Yes...That's the way I mean it,too.



Sorry about your team.

Who are they?

[clyde]

Oh, the rule works even better in college fb.




Ohio State vs. Miami being the classic example.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

The Saints defense may have been ranked 25th last year ... but they were #2 in the NFL in turnovers forced .. just one behind the Packers... and that's not factored into where the unit is ranked.

It's all about scoring points and not turning it over for an offense.

It's all about not giving up points and forcing turnovers for a defense.

Just for Randall's info.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by clyde

Yes...That's the way I mean it,too.



Sorry about your team.

Who are they?

He likes the Canadian BillieGoats