Corinthian or Bernardini

Originally Posted by boldruler

A guy connected to Barbaro told me Bernardini might be even better than him on the dirt. They still think Barbaro was the most talented horse on turf they have ever seen.

I have to tell you that I agree with just about every word of this statement....nice post!!! Barbaro was breath-taking on grass and I really thought that the sky was the limit on that surface, yet while I appreciated his Derby win, I am one who believes that Bernardini would have still beaten him in the Preakness and probably was a better dirt horse.....that opinion won't be taken well on this chatboard but I really do...Nice post!

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Gander

"Barbaro and Bernardini might be two of the top 3yr olds in a long time."

You really think Bernardini is as good as Smarty or Alex for that matter? I mean one big win in a race marred by a tragic breakdown and the next logical contender nearly tripping over him losing any chance he may have had?

Wont argue with you about Barbaro. To me he did enough.

Bernardini is better than Smarty or Alex, and unlike the two of them, he might actually stick around to race at four.

[Gander]

Bernardini is better than Smarty or Alex, and unlike the two of them, he might actually stick around to race at four.

I disagree very much, especially in regards to Bernardini being better than Smarty, who was cost a triple crown by dirty riding antics, which we've already been through.

Not yet at this point in his career can you say he is better than Smarty. Hes raced what 4 times? And I am all for horses sticking around until they get old, so I hope to see Bernardini race until he is 6 or 7. I wish Smarty had stuck around and the Belmont did not come up smelling like rotten eggs. He was awesome.

Bernardini also came up through GP this winter....Jazil clearly has improved and probably was up against it closing into that often present GP surface, while First Samurai still must prove that he is a graded stakes performer around two turns, which is VERY arguable at this point....I'm actualy one who believes he can route but hje has to prove that he can...his FOY was not a good effort IMO....Flashy Bull is the epitome if mediocre and Rehoboth and horses like that aren't much either....Oh, and Sunriver showed that he was definately a bit overrated...Corinthian really beat nothing that gave him a challenge in that race IMO...

He is also a freakin' headcase and is a Pulpit - which means that he is probably fragile as all get out.....can't say that makes for me to be a huge fan of this horse, and to mention his name in the same sentence with Bernardini right now is actually discreditting to Bernardini IMO...

Personally, I think Bernardini is about 10 lengths superior to Corinthian...Hey, its just my opinion, but I am very surpirsed that this is even a debate at this point that has garnered multiple posts....

Bernardini's talent level versus Discreet Cat's talent level may be the better argument at this point IMO...

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Bernardini also came up through GP this winter....Jazil clearly has improved and probably was up against it closing into that often present GP surface, while First Samurai still must prove that he is a graded stakes performer around two turns, which is VERY arguable at this point....I'm actualy one who believes he can route but hje has to prove that he can...his FOY was not a good effort IMO....Flashy Bull is the epitome if mediocre and Rehoboth and horses like that aren't much either....Oh, and Sunriver showed that he was definately a bit overrated...Corinthian really beat nothing that gave him a challenge in that race IMO...

He is also a freakin' headcase and is a Pulpit - which means that he is probably fragile as all get out.....can't say that makes for me to be a huge fan of this horse, and to mention his name in the same sentence with Bernardini right now is actually discreditting to Bernardini IMO...

Personally, I think Bernardini is about 10 lengths superior to Corinthian...Hey, its just my opinion, but I am very surpirsed that this is even a debate at this point that has garnered multiple posts....

Bernardini's talent level versus Discreet Cat's talent level may be the better argument at this point IMO...

You have to be kidding. Discreet Cat better than Corinthian. Please explain this to me.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

You have to be kidding. Discreet Cat better than Corinthian. Please explain this to me.

What is there to explain?..Check the pps and you'll see that its not even really close at this point....Discreet Cat was easily the most impressive maiden winner last summer at the Spa, running 1:09 and change and destroying his rivals first out and earning a VERY fasy speed fig. for that time of the year for a firster....Then, he came backand absolutely jogged in both of his Dubai starts, which included CRUSHING top older handicap horse Invasor and the previously undefeated Champion Simpatico Bribon and all other comers with absolute ease and is undefeated and unchallenged to this point....What more do you want?

Corinthian has been average to good at this point in his career at best....They are both fragile animals that probably won't have long, friutful careers, but I think there is ZERO doubt that Discreet Cat must be considered heads and shoulders better than Corinthian until proven otherwise...just my opinion but I've gotta believe that most would agree...

[JJP]

The FOY was a negative key race and Bernardini blew away a solid Preakness field w/a huge figure. Not even remotely close between the two.

Pedigree can't show you who has heart, Lava Man would be a very good example of that. And Joel Louis Quartorze is currently performing quite nicely and I can assure you he doesnt produce ****. Here is something cut and pasted from DRf as of this week for stallions with their progenies earnings in 2006.
Storm Cat 81 43 2,452,531
Louis Quatorze 158 109 2,419,471


Joel I happen to like Louis as a stallion and under new management he is doing quite well. As a matter of fact that **** producing stallion who stands for 7500 is directly beneath the "mighty and fraudulent Storm cat" on the sire earnings list this year. Imagine that? 500 grand for Storm Cat and 7500 for Louis and they are only 33,000 dollars apart.

[Betsy]

Oracle, I'm no fan of Storm Cat, but it's hardly fair to compare him (he's led many sires lists) to a horse who's gotten maybe just a few good horses in his career. It's usually not a good thing when a sire's earnings are mostly due to one horse - in this case, Bushfire. Where are his other top class horses, outside of Repent? Are you saying that Louis Quatorze is a top class sire or even a very good one? If so, I agree with Joel. He's a mediocre to decent sire (who was bad enough that he got kicked out of KY) at best. One other question - if you don't care about pedigree, why have you brought up Circular Quay's sire and dam in your posts about him? You've mentioned that he should stretch out based on Thunder Gulch's accomplishments at the Classic distances. If pedigree isn't important, then why mention it at all?

What happens if Bernardini wins big this year (not saying which races) and then runs and does well next year; wouldn't we then be able to say he's good for racing (which is how this started in the first place)?

Originally Posted by oracle80

Pedigree can't show you who has heart, Lava Man would be a very good example of that. And Joel Louis Quartorze is currently performing quite nicely and I can assure you he doesnt produce ****. Here is something cut and pasted from DRf as of this week for stallions with their progenies earnings in 2006.
Storm Cat 81 43 2,452,531
Louis Quatorze 158 109 2,419,471


Joel I happen to like Louis as a stallion and under new management he is doing quite well. As a matter of fact that **** producing stallion who stands for 7500 is directly beneath the "mighty and fraudulent Storm cat" on the sire earnings list this year. Imagine that? 500 grand for Storm Cat and 7500 for Louis and they are only 33,000 dollars apart.

Oracle am i reading this correctly.

Storm Cat has had 81 starters with 43 first place with $2,452,351 in earnings and Louis Quatorze has had 158 startes with 109 firs place with $2,419,417 in earnings? I am a bit confused here. Please advise.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Oracle am i reading this correctly.

Storm Cat has had 81 starters with 43 first place with $2,452,351 in earnings and Louis Quatorze has had 158 startes with 109 firs place with $2,419,417 in earnings? I am a bit confused here. Please advise.

Some of the cut and paste got lopped off, go to DRf and see for yourself but Storm cat leads Louis by 33 grand as of July 11th in earnings THIS YEAR. Thats not a lifetime stat.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Oracle am i reading this correctly.

Storm Cat has had 81 starters with 43 first place with $2,452,351 in earnings and Louis Quatorze has had 158 startes with 109 firs place with $2,419,417 in earnings? I am a bit confused here. Please advise.

The only reason Louis is within a smell of Storm Cat is because he has had twice the starters as SC has....again, the Storm Cats are not the soundess animals on earth and when you have invested $500K to breed to him, you are not going to race the foal until he is in perfect health (well, unless you are D Wayne )

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

The only reason Louis is within a smell of Storm Cat is because he has had twice the starters as SC has....again, the Storm Cats are not the soundess animals on earth and when you have invested $500K to breed to him, you are not going to race the foal until he is in perfect health (well, unless you are D Wayne )

Oralce, you arent analyzing the number here. These number are from Bloodhorse.

Louis - 163 starters - 68 winners - $2,449,859 in earnings.

This is a avg return of $15,029.80 per starter. With 17% win

Storm Cat - 95 starters - 35 winners - $2,655,268 in earnings.

This is an avg of $27,950.18 per starter. With a 36% win.

You have to look at the numbers more carefully.