You make the call.. Classic or Mile for Wise Dan?

[tanner12oz]

Have thought it for awhile but I think this is one of the best horses of at the very least the past decade....yeah the classic distances are shakey at best but this horse is one of the greats....the great horses make ya feel bad for the poor horses that would be decent winners had they not been born into the same crop as the wise Dan buzz saw

[Thunder Gulch]

Win the Mile, try to blaze a trail through Dubai and Europe next year (or Melbourne /Japan), then come back to the permanent home of the BC for an encore.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by tanner12oz

Have thought it for awhile but I think this is one of the best horses of at the very least the past decade....yeah the classic distances are shakey at best but this horse is one of the greats....the great horses make ya feel bad for the poor horses that would be decent winners had they not been born into the same crop as the wise Dan buzz saw

Great turf miler, sure. He wasn't beating POE at 9f derby day. Shame he's hurt now. Look at his last dirt race, he lost to Ron The Greek, who is OK, but no one mistakes for great.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Great turf miler, sure. He wasn't beating POE at 9f derby day. Shame he's hurt now. Look at his last dirt race, he lost to Ron The Greek, who is OK, but no one mistakes for great.

If you know anything about pace, you would know Wise Dan ran terrific in the Foster. He was much the best.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

If you know anything about pace, you would know Wise Dan ran terrific in the Foster. He was much the best.

I saw you're recent post on PA about this. I'll admit I didn't remember it being that hot.

[SteveHaskin]

Why run John Henry in the Santa Anita Handicap twice and Jockey Club Gold Cup when he was strictly a grass horse? Result: Only horse to win the Big Cap twice.

Why keep trying to win the Washington D.C. International vs. the world's best turf horses with Kelso year after year when he was a dirt horse? Result: New American record for 1 1/2 miles and a fifth consecutvie Horse of the Year title.

Why run Forego in the 7f Vosburgh and Carter against brilliant sprinters like Mr. Prospector, Lonetree, and Timeless Moment when his best races were between 1 1/4 miles and 2 miles? Result: Only horse in history to win the 2-mile JC Gold Cup and be named champion sprinter the same year.

All through history, horses, not just these three great geldings, have stepped out of their comfort zone to strive for greatness. It wasnt about maintaining an unbeaten streak or the money. It was the sporting thing to do. Who remembers John Henry's, Forego's, and Kelso's defeats, except when those defeats actually boosted their reputation (ie Seattle Slew in the Gold Cup, Zenyatta in the Classic, Groupie Doll in last year's Cigar Mile)

Why run Arcangues in the BC Classic when he was strictly a grass horse? Result: Highest payoff in Breeders' Cup history.

Why stretch Ghostzapper out to 1 1/4 miles in the BC Classic when he had been two turns only once in his career and seven of his nine career starts were in sprints? Result: A new stakes record in the Classic and a Horse of the Year title.

Why run Raven's Pass and Henry the Navigator on a synthetic surface for the first time going 1 1/4 miles against the mighty Curlin when they were strictly grass milers? Result: an unprecedented European 1-2 finish.

Wise Dan is a truly great miler on the grass and there is nothing wrong with having that distinction. If they are content with that and to keep his unbeaten streak going, that's fine. It's their prerogative. They obviously don't have any aspirations of elevating him to the category of the all-time great geldings mentioned above. Again, that's their decision. There is something to be said for winning. Mort Fink said he was so confident before last year's BC Mile, because he knew the horse would do whatever he had to to win. For some owners, they wouldn't want to be that confident race after race, knowing their horse was going to win. Some would like to experience the thrill that doubt brings and savor a victory all the more, because it wasn't a foregone conclusion. Each owner is different.

And to those who say Wise Dan has no shot in the Classic, what is that based on? He's a grade I winner at 1 1/8 miles on dirt and didnt have the best of trips in his head defeat in a grade I at 1 1/8 miles. The all-time greats do things other than what they do best. That's what makes them all-time greats. Sometimes you have to take chances to attain that.

[SteveHaskin]

I also want to add about Ghostzapper, you couldn't push his half-brother City Zip past 6 furlongs.

I only mention all this because Wise Dan has so much potential greatness in him. If he didn't, I wouldn't give a hoot where they ran him. Today's game is very different than it used to be. For a fossil like myself, it's time to adapt to the new way of thinking.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by SteveHaskin

I also want to add about Ghostzapper, you couldn't push his half-brother City Zip past 6 furlongs.

I only mention all this because Wise Dan has so much potential greatness in him. If he didn't, I wouldn't give a hoot where they ran him. Today's game is very different than it used to be. For a fossil like myself, it's time to adapt to the new way of thinking.

Of course City Zip didn't have Frankel and Frankel's vet....His progeny seem to be a little shy of winning on the dirt(Ghostzapper).

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by SteveHaskin

I also want to add about Ghostzapper, you couldn't push his half-brother City Zip past 6 furlongs.

I only mention all this because Wise Dan has so much potential greatness in him. If he didn't, I wouldn't give a hoot where they ran him. Today's game is very different than it used to be. For a fossil like myself, it's time to adapt to the new way of thinking.

Great comments, Steve, and thanks for sharing the perspective. I've been super critical of the Wise Dan campaign mostly because I really believe he could be one of the special ones who can display his versatility on all surfaces and at longer distances, and it frustrates me seeing him limited to the mile grass races.

You hate having to wonder "what could've been" with so many horses whose careers DID end prematurely. Here's one whose career hasn't ended, and is a gelding, and the grit he showed in his Clark win, the dominance in the Ben Ali (with its 117 BSF), and you think he could be so much more...it stinks having to wonder "what could be" when it seems this question won't be answered.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by SteveHaskin

Why run John Henry in the Santa Anita Handicap twice and Jockey Club Gold Cup when he was strictly a grass horse? Result: Only horse to win the Big Cap twice.

Why keep trying to win the Washington D.C. International vs. the world's best turf horses with Kelso year after year when he was a dirt horse? Result: New American record for 1 1/2 miles and a fifth consecutvie Horse of the Year title.

Why run Forego in the 7f Vosburgh and Carter against brilliant sprinters like Mr. Prospector, Lonetree, and Timeless Moment when his best races were between 1 1/4 miles and 2 miles? Result: Only horse in history to win the 2-mile JC Gold Cup and be named champion sprinter the same year.

All through history, horses, not just these three great geldings, have stepped out of their comfort zone to strive for greatness. It wasnt about maintaining an unbeaten streak or the money. It was the sporting thing to do. Who remembers John Henry's, Forego's, and Kelso's defeats, except when those defeats actually boosted their reputation (ie Seattle Slew in the Gold Cup, Zenyatta in the Classic, Groupie Doll in last year's Cigar Mile)

Why run Arcangues in the BC Classic when he was strictly a grass horse? Result: Highest payoff in Breeders' Cup history.

Why stretch Ghostzapper out to 1 1/4 miles in the BC Classic when he had been two turns only once in his career and seven of his nine career starts were in sprints? Result: A new stakes record in the Classic and a Horse of the Year title.

Why run Raven's Pass and Henry the Navigator on a synthetic surface for the first time going 1 1/4 miles against the mighty Curlin when they were strictly grass milers? Result: an unprecedented European 1-2 finish.

Wise Dan is a truly great miler on the grass and there is nothing wrong with having that distinction. If they are content with that and to keep his unbeaten streak going, that's fine. It's their prerogative. They obviously don't have any aspirations of elevating him to the category of the all-time great geldings mentioned above. Again, that's their decision. There is something to be said for winning. Mort Fink said he was so confident before last year's BC Mile, because he knew the horse would do whatever he had to to win. For some owners, they wouldn't want to be that confident race after race, knowing their horse was going to win. Some would like to experience the thrill that doubt brings and savor a victory all the more, because it wasn't a foregone conclusion. Each owner is different.

And to those who say Wise Dan has no shot in the Classic, what is that based on? He's a grade I winner at 1 1/8 miles on dirt and didnt have the best of trips in his head defeat in a grade I at 1 1/8 miles. The all-time greats do things other than what they do best. That's what makes them all-time greats. Sometimes you have to take chances to attain that.

Amen, Steve, and speaking of Curlin, don't forget his 1 3/8 on grass in the Man O' War. Sure he lost but he did well in 2nd and beat Better Talk Now which ain't nothin'. I still think he could've handled other tries on turf.

Originally Posted by SteveHaskin

I also want to add about Ghostzapper, you couldn't push his half-brother City Zip past 6 furlongs.

I only mention all this because Wise Dan has so much potential greatness in him. If he didn't, I wouldn't give a hoot where they ran him. Today's game is very different than it used to be. For a fossil like myself, it's time to adapt to the new way of thinking.

You're not a fossil, Steve. You're a treasure. I feel the same way about Wise Dan as Zenyatta and Azeri (pre-Lukas). If they're capable of doing more in their campaigns than they're doing, I'm just gonna feel let down if they play it safe. I still think Rachel belonged in the 2010 Stephen Foster. Her campaign decisions that year still leave me scratching my head.

[-BT-]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Great turf miler, sure. He wasn't beating POE at 9f derby day. Shame he's hurt now. Look at his last dirt race, he lost to Ron The Greek, who is OK, but no one mistakes for great.

[quote=cakes44;939844]Yep, pretty sure POE was scratched because they knew he was going to blow the doors off Wise Dan that day and they just felt bad

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Thanks for making things up.

"making things up"

you just anointed a horse who scratched the day of, a winner, over reigning horse of the year.

racing people are a fickle bunch, you don't run past 3 people gripe. You only run against your own sex, people gripe. You go to the shed at the first sign of an injury, people gripe. You only race at specific distance, people gripe.

the horse has won on multiple surfaces, at multiple distance, AT multiple tracks.
I feel sorry for those of you who knock a horse like this, saying he's not a true great b/c he's not/never been in the BC Classic, i assume you're the same people who gripe when a horse is retired.

these connections are essentially doing us a favor by continuing to run this horse, WHEREVER that may be, people should stop the hating and start the embracing

-bt-

[JJP]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I saw you're recent post on PA about this. I'll admit I didn't remember it being that hot.

It was. The surface at CD that day wasn't that fast and they went under 1:11 to 6f. The race really came apart at the end with the final furlong run in slightly over 14 seconds.

[Danzig]

i agree, steve. he has potential greatness.

i just think perhaps the owner wants to take a stab at two races with his two horses. i think we'd all love to see wise dan in the classic. but i'm not going to complain about what he's done. it's certainly not minor league. and any time you have a horse that seems extremely talented, people want something different, a different test of his abilities. maybe this year, maybe next?
perhaps steve byk can get the owner and/or trainer on ATR, try to see what's up.

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

He wasn't beating POE at 9f derby day.

Yep, pretty sure POE was scratched because they knew he was going to blow the doors off Wise Dan that day and they just felt bad for him.

[Danzig]

i enjoyed wise dan's races last year. hope they try him on dirt at least once again this year.
that said, turf is considered kinder to a horse. and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. hopefully between him and his half-brother, we'll be treated for plenty more good racing, this year and for a few years to come.

[Thunder Gulch]

So what's the goal here? The BC Mile is a big check with a high probability of cashing. Win there and you join a handful of horses who have won different BC races and cementing a legacy of one of the best in that turf mile division.

However, if you take a gamble in the Classic, you really are going for "all time greatness." I don't think he has a good shot, but he has a shot at American racing immortality. I don't think that's an overstatement for a multiple HOY who won BC races on different surfaces, capped by the Classic.

For an old guy with a once in a lifetime horse, I'd take the shot.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

So what's the goal here? The BC Mile is a big check with a high probability of cashing. Win there and you join a handful of horses who have won different BC races and cementing a legacy of one of the best in that turf mile division.

However, if you take a gamble in the Classic, you really are going for "all time greatness." I don't think he has a good shot, but he has a shot at American racing immortality. I don't think that's an overstatement for a multiple HOY who won BC races on different surfaces, capped by the Classic.

For an old guy with a once in a lifetime horse, I'd take the shot.

i think it depends on what happens with successful dan. mr. lopresti has a possible chance to win two races on cup day. that's an enviable position for sure!

[RockHardTen1985]

[quote=cakes44;939844]Yep, pretty sure POE was scratched because they knew he was going to blow the doors off Wise Dan that day and they just felt bad

Thanks for making things up.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by -BT-

you just anointed a horse who scratched the day of, a winner, over reigning horse of the year.

Huh?

Cakes dear... you're gonna have to preface it with some kind of little warning or something next time you're being sarcastic.

[classhandicapper]

I think Wise Dan has clearly demonstrated he has the versatility to compete against the best horses in the game across all surfaces at middle distances.

However, I also think we are so used to trainers not knowing their own horses well, we assume that's true of all trainers.

To me, Charles Lopresti seems to be a trainer of extraordinary talent. Just look at the job he has done with Successful Dan also. Amazing!

I don't think the winning streak (he's already lost a bunch of races) or HOTY have anything to do with the thinking of Wise Dan's connections. They have to know this campaign won't get him HOTY again or even enhance his reputation a great deal.

My guess is that the connections think Wise Dan does NOT want to go further than 9F against the best horses in the country and they also believe they are competent enough to make that assessment without running him. So the Classic and Turf Classic are off the radar. Once you reach that conclusion, the best way to win the Turf Mile again (and some great horses have done just that) is to probably do exactly what they are doing, not bouncing back and forth between surfaces, running in the Whitney or Woodward or some Classic race on synthetic in CA etc...

The may be thinking along these lines.

It's one thing to throw your horse into a challenging situation that he's prepared to handle and has a decent chance to be successful at. It's another to throw him into a race you already know he can't win just because the fans want it.

I'm sure there are loads of people here that disagree with that assessment of Dan or feel like the horse deserves a chance to prove it on the track, but I really don't think the winning streak or HOTY have anything to do with their thinking. So what else can it be.