NYTHA Lasix Primer & Letter to NYS RWB

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Danzig

the euros are better most years at what?
and since you brought it up, regarding euros. don't they train with lasix? and as soon as they get over here, they race them on it. seems hard for them to be holier than thou when they jump at the chance to use it asap. and they'd use it at home the moment it was legalized. many push for it-and with reason.

and in australia, they remove the better bleeders after an episode, because after a second there, they can't breed. so they send them here. why do you suppose they do that? because they can run on lasix to prevent further bleeding and it's potential consequences.

Thank you for reminding me about this as it completely undercuts his entire argument and anyone's regarding the diluting of the breed. I guess Lasix only dilutes the breed when horses race on it, but not when they train on it.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by pointman

Thank you for reminding me about this as it completely undercuts his entire argument and anyone's regarding the diluting of the breed. I guess Lasix only dilutes the breed when horses race on it, but not when they train on it.

What is the source that asserts that European horses are trained on lasix? Even so, does supporting a ban of raceday medication mean that one also must support banning medication for training/therapeutic purposes?

Furthermore, a racehorse's reputation is (or should be) made on raceday, not during training sessions, so a "drug dependent" horse would still have to compete clean to have a shot at entering the breeding population.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

What is the source that asserts that European horses are trained on lasix? Even so, does supporting a ban of raceday medication mean that one also must support banning medication for training/therapeutic purposes?

Furthermore, a racehorse's reputation is (or should be) made on raceday, not during training sessions, so a "drug dependent" horse would still have to compete clean to have a shot at entering the breeding population.

Most stallions are failures regadless of what country they raced in or what medications that they raced on. The vast majority of mares are bred primarily because of pedigree first, conformation 2nd and race record third. The idea that a a diuretic can have an effect on the genetic makeup of a horse is laughable.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Most stallions are failures regadless of what country they raced in or what medications that they raced on.

Nevertheless, most intact males become stallions based on race performance.

The idea that a a diuretic can have an effect on the genetic makeup of a horse is laughable.

I agree. I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that, though. Certainly the possibility exists that severe EIPH manifested as epistaxis is a heritable trait.

Lasix has been shown to reduce the incidence of epistaxis. So the potential is there for lasix to "mask" severe bleeders, theoretically allowing them to race competively and subsequently become breeding prospects.

[Danzig]

another thing about euros-they send their 'bleeders' here to race. not exactly removing them from the gene pool by doing that...and if breeding is culling bleeding, why do they still have bleeders?
and, if they want to know who's a bleeder...why do they train with it?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

another thing about euros-they send their 'bleeders' here to race. not exactly removing them from the gene pool by doing that...and if breeding is culling bleeding, why do they still have bleeders?

Well, first, permissible lasix in the States enables opportunists to make a quick buck dumping/selling their bleeders to the US. Not every horse owner is a breeder or a racing purist. Secondly, Europeans are active at the NA sales and operate breeding farms in the US, so the domestic bloodlines still make their way across the Atlantic.

and, if they want to know who's a bleeder...why do they train with it?

Again, who says that they use it for training? Even if they are, who says they are using it indiscriminately on every horse? Perhaps they identify the bleeders first and then treat accordingly.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

What is the source that asserts that European horses are trained on lasix? Even so, does supporting a ban of raceday medication mean that one also must support banning medication for training/therapeutic purposes?

Furthermore, a racehorse's reputation is (or should be) made on raceday, not during training sessions, so a "drug dependent" horse would still have to compete clean to have a shot at entering the breeding population.

as soon as they come up with a way to know beforehand what horses will suffer a bleeding episode and when, i'll fully support removing horses who don't 'need' lasix from using it. until then, i will fully support all efforts to prevent hemorraging during training and racing.

for starters on europe and lasix, there's this pdf from grayson-jockey club:

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/ne...singmatter.pdf

an excerpt:

.'....“Lasix” to race? Yes, these drugs are illegal when racing in Europe, but it is not illegal for a European trainer to administer these drugs to a horse when he is training it.'


and keep in mind, most euros run on lasix when here. i've always found it odd when euro trainers sneer at us for using it, and then use it themselves as soon as they get the chance.

[Danzig]

then there's this:


The Horsemen's Journal: Archive


Medication Committee Corner: Are We Winning the Lasix War?
The Horsemen''''s Journal - Fall 2011
by Kent H. Stirling, National HBPA Medication Committee Chairman

A lot has happened in the last few months dealing generally with race-day medication and specifically with Lasix/Salix, which is used to reduce or prevent Exercise Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage (EIPH) in racehorses. Lasix (I still can’t bring myself to call it Salix after all these years) is permitted for administration to racehorses three to four hours before post time in all United States racing jurisdictions. It is also legal on race-day in Canada, South America, and Saudi Arabia. Horses train on it in virtually every country in the world with a 50-nanogram threshold in urine or, in other words, don’t work a horse on it within two days of your race or your horse will be “positive” for Lasix. Since EIPH is a progressive condition that gets worse with age and every bleeding incident, one would be well advised to train on Lasix for speed works in those countries that don’t permit its use in racing.


imo, if they use it in training, where a horse seemingly would NOT be at maximum exertion, why would they ban it's use when he would be needing to run his best and hardest? what matter if it's not in the system within 48 hours of an actual race if it's used otherwise? how is that logical?


https://www.nationalhbpa.com/Horseme...n=3&key1=13747

there's the link to the whole article.


and for those who don't read it through, this is toward the end:


Dr. Tobin gave a presentation on the expected increased risk to horse and rider from acute/sudden death EIPH due to the banning of Lasix. This risk was fairly obvious because when New York permitted Lasix in 1995, the incidence of Epistaxis (visibly bleeding from the nostrils) immediately dropped 80 percent!

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Danzig

imo, if they use it in training, where a horse seemingly would NOT be at maximum exertion, why would they ban it's use when he would be needing to run his best and hardest? what matter if it's not in the system within 48 hours of an actual race if it's used otherwise? how is that logical?

If I were to guess, I'd say that due to the endless arguments of whether it's a performance-enhancer or not, Europe just decides to dodge the issue and forbid it on race day.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

for starters on europe and lasix, there's this pdf from grayson-jockey club:

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/ne...singmatter.pdf

an excerpt:

.'....“Lasix” to race? Yes, these drugs are illegal when racing in Europe, but it is not illegal for a European trainer to administer these drugs to a horse when he is training it.'

This is hardly proof that European trainers utilize lasix during training.

Another poster in this thread, when discussing the safety of using lasix, seemed to suggest that even American racehorses only receive lasix for races, not training. So Europeans are allegedly using lasix like hotcakes inbetween races, but their US counterparts wait until only raceday? Seems counterintuitive, and bad practice besides, since a racehorse can suffer bleeding in training (even simply galloping) just as it can in a race.

and keep in mind, most euros run on lasix when here. i've always found it odd when euro trainers sneer at us for using it, and then use it themselves as soon as they get the chance.

It can be argued, as cmorioles has suggested numerous times, that lasix is used by European trainers when racing stateside because it enhances performance or at least "levels the playing field". And this indiscriminate use of drugs in a "pre-race" fashion is the underlying crux of why even therapeutic medications are being targeted for banning by certain elitist-idealists groups within the racing industry.

[GenuineRisk]

Graham Motion on Lasix (note what he says about Britain)

Team Valor’s Barry Irwin has said he can’t convince you that you don’t need Lasix on raceday. Why is that?
My problem with doing away with Lasix is that we’re going to go back to how it was before in New York (the last state to permit the drug), where everybody is trying to use things under the table that nobody knows about. I honestly don’t believe that in some of these other countries people don’t use alternative medications to Lasix. It’s better the devil you know than the devil you don’t know. Most horses bleed to a degree. Lasix is one medication that we know helps horses that have this hemorrhaging. My feeling is let’s control the administration like they do in Canada. 5 cc’s are to be given by a state veterinarian. If we do away with Lasix, we’d better step up security big time. No one’s going to like that. You cannot tell me that people are not going to use other things.

Are you suggesting the rest of the world should adopt our rules?
That’s a tough point. No, I’m not. In England, everyone gives Lasix up to the race, then they take it away. A lot of it comes to the horsemanship side.

We are so much more proactive over here in scoping our horses. I want to be on top of our horses. When we consider a horse to bleed, it might just have a spot in his lungs. In many places bleeding is only identified if it’s external.

http://www.paulickreport.com/feature...graham-motion/

[Danzig]

ok, from everything i've read here and the other thread, as well as in other discussions, let me see if i have this right:


pro's of removing lasix on race day:

no longer have horses on drugs on race day.


are there any others?

facts on lasix:

not harmful
not proven to enhance performance (note, i said proven-opnion/belief isn't proof)
prevents bleeding and any accompanying lung damage
not a masking agent. (as the study i linked said, with plasma testing, better testing(for what they know what to test for!), lasix can't be considered as a masking agent
used either in training and/or race day in practically every racing jurisdiction on the planet

cons of removing lasix on race day:

bleeders with a history have lost their bleeding prevention, prone to worsening episodes as well as more and more damage.
no way of knowing what horse will have a bleeding episode, or when, or how severe. that in turn means no prevention of lung damage, which can be permanent
an alternative to lasix is removal of water and food for 24-48 hours before racing. (that's some alternative)

or you can force people who currently have something they can use to prevent bleeding to retire a horse instead. wow. can you imagine? dip deep in your pockets, buy a horse. pay for all the training and what comes with it...the horse runs, bleeds, and you have no way to recoup that money. that sounds like a great plan.



and as for the comment about 'since the 70's' this or that has changed...

isn't that about the same time that commercial breeding took off?

Originally Posted by Danzig

ok, from everything i've read here and the other thread, as well as in other discussions, let me see if i have this right:


pro's of removing lasix on race day:

no longer have horses on drugs on race day.


are there any others?

facts on lasix:

not harmful
not proven to enhance performance (note, i said proven-opnion/belief isn't proof)
prevents bleeding and any accompanying lung damage
not a masking agent. (as the study i linked said, with plasma testing, better testing(for what they know what to test for!), lasix can't be considered as a masking agent
used either in training and/or race day in practically every racing jurisdiction on the planet

cons of removing lasix on race day:

bleeders with a history have lost their bleeding prevention, prone to worsening episodes as well as more and more damage.
no way of knowing what horse will have a bleeding episode, or when, or how severe. that in turn means no prevention of lung damage, which can be permanent
an alternative to lasix is removal of water and food for 24-48 hours before racing. (that's some alternative)

or you can force people who currently have something they can use to prevent bleeding to retire a horse instead. wow. can you imagine? dip deep in your pockets, buy a horse. pay for all the training and what comes with it...the horse runs, bleeds, and you have no way to recoup that money. that sounds like a great plan.



and as for the comment about 'since the 70's' this or that has changed...

isn't that about the same time that commercial breeding took off?

It's good for big pharma. It also was initially used to treat forms of heart disease.

If the majority of horses take it then vets should be held accountable and face license suspension if they can't prove the horse has a heart condition.

It's not a good look for the sport when mostly old humans are taking furosemide and it translates to young horses taking it.

Doesn't make your side seem to0 genuine.

Side note: It's clear to me Black Caviar needs it. That poor horse!!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

ok, from everything i've read here and the other thread, as well as in other discussions, let me see if i have this right:


pro's of removing lasix on race day:

no longer have horses on drugs on race day.


are there any others?

facts on lasix:

not harmful
not proven to enhance performance (note, i said proven-opnion/belief isn't proof)
prevents bleeding and any accompanying lung damage
not a masking agent. (as the study i linked said, with plasma testing, better testing(for what they know what to test for!), lasix can't be considered as a masking agent
used either in training and/or race day in practically every racing jurisdiction on the planet

cons of removing lasix on race day:

bleeders with a history have lost their bleeding prevention, prone to worsening episodes as well as more and more damage.
no way of knowing what horse will have a bleeding episode, or when, or how severe. that in turn means no prevention of lung damage, which can be permanent
an alternative to lasix is removal of water and food for 24-48 hours before racing. (that's some alternative)

or you can force people who currently have something they can use to prevent bleeding to retire a horse instead. wow. can you imagine? dip deep in your pockets, buy a horse. pay for all the training and what comes with it...the horse runs, bleeds, and you have no way to recoup that money. that sounds like a great plan.



and as for the comment about 'since the 70's' this or that has changed...

isn't that about the same time that commercial breeding took off?

You have the issues well thought out

You did forget one con, however: the increase in the American racing public starting to see horses bleeding out their nose and in respiratory distress as they come back to be unsaddled.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

ok, from everything i've read here and the other thread, as well as in other discussions, let me see if i have this right:


pro's of removing lasix on race day:

no longer have horses on drugs on race day.


are there any others?

facts on lasix:

not harmful
not proven to enhance performance (note, i said proven-opnion/belief isn't proof)
prevents bleeding and any accompanying lung damage
not a masking agent. (as the study i linked said, with plasma testing, better testing(for what they know what to test for!), lasix can't be considered as a masking agent
used either in training and/or race day in practically every racing jurisdiction on the planet

cons of removing lasix on race day:

bleeders with a history have lost their bleeding prevention, prone to worsening episodes as well as more and more damage.
no way of knowing what horse will have a bleeding episode, or when, or how severe. that in turn means no prevention of lung damage, which can be permanent
an alternative to lasix is removal of water and food for 24-48 hours before racing. (that's some alternative)

One thing not mentioned was the dose of lasix used on raceday.

One of the reasons behind the banning of "milkshaking" is that horsemen can alter the outercome of a race by employing an "on-and-off" regimen (one race given, one race not given) of bicarbonate.

With lasix, most jurisdictions allow a range of lasix from 150mg to 500mg. Is there room there to alter a horse's performance? If I have a severe bleeder whose bleeding is controlled only with the higher dose of lasix, what happens if I up and decide to give him the bare minimum in his next race?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

My problem with doing away with Lasix is that we’re going to go back to how it was before in New York (the last state to permit the drug), where everybody is trying to use things under the table that nobody knows about. I honestly don’t believe that in some of these other countries people don’t use alternative medications to Lasix. It’s better the devil you know than the devil you don’t know.

This is basically the obvious reason why I don't care one way or another about the lasix issue and would probably prefer it doesn't get banned.

[Danzig]

i don't buy the assertion from some that it's performance enhancing. to me that's akin to people still saying the turns are tighter at pimlico. it's not true, but people believe it. those who've done studies say it is not, that's enough for me.
horses who 'move up' do so because they aren't suffering eiph, not because lasix gave them talent they didn't have before.

and yes, there are other articles and studies that say euros train on lasix-as did the second article i posted...then there's the study done by the irish that said the same thing. go google it, that's what i did. it's all there. also, in the irish study, one of their points was to 'send bleeders to the u.s.'. obviously they get that lasix prevents bleeding, why else send them here?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't buy the assertion from some that it's performance enhancing. to me that's akin to people still saying the turns are tighter at pimlico. it's not true, but people believe it. those who've done studies say it is not, that's enough for me.
horses who 'move up' do so because they aren't suffering eiph, not because lasix gave them talent they didn't have before.

The same person that finally proved that Lasix was effective under racing conditions also did a study that concluded that Lasix was a performance enhancer. Furthermore, lasix has other effects aside from reducing the severity of bleeding, namely causing a ~3% decrease in body weight (ie upwards to 30lbs) and changing the acid-base balance of the blood (ie the same principle behind "milkshaking" albeit at a less dramatic level). Those potential factors are still on the table, so saying that horses receiving lasix run better simply because they don't bleed is not necessarily accurate.

and yes, there are other articles and studies that say euros train on lasix-as did the second article i posted...then there's the study done by the irish that said the same thing. go google it, that's what i did. it's all there. also, in the irish study, one of their points was to 'send bleeders to the u.s.'. obviously they get that lasix prevents bleeding, why else send them here?

Not sure if it was the same Irish study you were referring to, but the one I found stated that less than 10% of horses receive lasix in training. I would presume that significantly less than here in the US. Also, let me reiterate that just because a medication is banned on raceday doesn't mean that it shouldn't be utilized for training or recovery. There is nothing hypocritical in that.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The same person that finally proved that Lasix was effective under racing conditions also did a study that concluded that Lasix was a performance enhancer. Furthermore, lasix has other effects aside from reducing the severity of bleeding, namely causing a ~3% decrease in body weight (ie upwards to 30lbs) and changing the acid-base balance of the blood (ie the same principle behind "milkshaking" albeit at a less dramatic level). Those potential factors are still on the table, so saying that horses receiving lasix run better simply because they don't bleed is not necessarily accurate.

Well, Rollo learns how to google. Good for you! Please, quote the exact study you are referring to that "lasix is a performance enhancer". I rather know what is being referred to, and I'd like to correct your misunderstanding.

Regarding the weight loss. No, it usually is not upwards of 30 pounds, and please, don't hesitate to quote the specific two studies that examined this very question: does weight loss contribute to increased performance with lasix? Because I guarantee you probably won't like the results.

No, lasix does NOT change the acid-base balance of the blood. Anybody who knows how this loop diuretic works knows that. If that were true, every horse given lasix would have a TCO2 positive.

Stick to being opinionated about racing, Rollo, but as an expert on lasix you're passing on half-baked information that has already, repeatedly, been "debunked".

I'm not talking about you specifically here, Rollo, but I'm tired of the outright medical lies being promulgated over the years by proponents of banning lasix. These lies and their position regarding what lasix does to the horse are at 100% odds with the veterinary and scientific community regarding what lasix does, and it sure as hell is not because they are better educated in veterinary medicine and science. They are ignorant old men, too foolish and set in their ways to leave their "knowledge" from the 1970's behind them. They are a danger to the health and welfare of the race horse.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Also, let me reiterate that just because a medication is banned on raceday doesn't mean that it shouldn't be utilized for training or recovery. There is nothing hypocritical in that.

Honestly Rollo, how can you take the position that Lasix is a performance enhancer and that it is ok to train on it? If you believe it is a peformance enhancer, then what scientific evidence exists that shots a couple of times a week to train won't enhance peformance in a race?