Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

For me, if all horses need drugs to race, preventive or otherwise, there shouldn't be racing. I can't think of any other sport for any type of being where this would even be considered.

So you are also against banning banamine? Omeprazole? Clenbuterol? Ketoprofen? Because there wouldn't be any horse racing without those drugs on the backstretch.

Horse racing in other countries use lasix daily as a therapeutic drug during speed training to prevent lung damage. It's just outlawed on race day. How backwards is that? It's allowed as a therapeutic drug on the race track in the morning, but not in the afternoon?

It's 2012. We shouldn't be making medical decisions for horses based upon decades-old outdated information and assumptions from the past.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Horse racing in other countries use lasix daily as a therapeutic drug during speed training to prevent lung damage. It's just outlawed on race day. How backwards is that? It's allowed as a therapeutic drug on the race track in the morning, but not in the afternoon?

That is ridiculous. What percentage of horses in other countries train on lasix during speed training, 5% at the most? It is an extremely small percent. It would only be horses that are considered bad bleeders.

[Danzig]

found this while trying to find info on lasix in foreign countries:

Long Term Lung Changes in ‘Bleeders’
It is well known that once a horse has a ‘severe’ bleed, it’s
subsequent race performance is likely to be reduced. The upper,
back sections of the lung receive high blood flow during
exercise, and is the area which exhibits evidence of vascular
changes and long term damage following a severe ‘bleeding’
episode. Prof. Frederik Derksen and other leading, well known
researchers at Michigan State and Melbourne University,
investigated the effects of bleeding on lung pathology. It is
currently believed that bleeding (or Exercise-Induced Pulmonary
Haemorrhage (EIPH) results from high internal blood pressures
(hypertension) and stress failure of the walls of the lung airsac
(alveolar) capillary arteries in all-out pacing and galloping
horses. However, the pathological changes that would be
expected in this case, with vessel fibrosis, blockage and small
bypass vessels that form within the bronchial walls, were not as
severe as previously identified. The new Michigan study
identified significant lung vascular changes, including increased
vein hypertension in the lung drainage vessels after a ‘bleeding’
episode. It was also found that both lungs had similar changes,
despite previous findings that the hind lobes of the left lung were
more scarred following a severe ‘bleed’. The study found more
collagen ‘scar’ tissue or fibrosis, degenerative red cell/monocyte
accumulation (haemosiderin) and vascular remodelling in the
airsac lining vessels in both the capillaries and drainage veins, as
well as the separating elastic (interstitial) tissues. The diameter
of the supply and drainage vessels were decreased by greater
than 50% during the healing process. This could be the reason
for the poor performance after a ‘bleed’, with increased lung
fluid build-up (oedema) and lower oxygen uptake.
Editor’s Note: The study indicated that restriction of the
veins in the area most effected by a ‘severe’ bleed, may
underlie the other damage seen after a ‘bleed’ and reduce
subsequent performance by affecting lung efficiency in
the long term. Restricting water intake for 6 hours prior
to racing may also help to reduce lung oedema and fluid
retention.



i'd want to prevent a bleed that would cause lasting damage. what would you tell me to do instead, if i was worried about such a thing, knowing the drug has medical uses and can prevent unnecessary damage to a horse that someone potentially invests a lot of money in?
if your concern is that it could move a horse up, but most horses already use it anyway, doesn't that negate any possible move-up? and many articles i've read say it's not a performance enhancer. is that an opinion, and not a proven fact? from what i've read in various studies, it's not a fact.

[Danzig]

http://www.nytha.com/pdf/the_lasix_question.pdf


interesting point regarding witholding hay and water for 24-48 hours before racing.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.nytha.com/pdf/the_lasix_question.pdf


interesting point regarding witholding hay and water for 24-48 hours before racing.

Nice way to induce impaction colic (remove hay from the diet)

That's a great reference telling the truth about lasix, I would recommend that those interested here read it. Thanks for posting that link.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

That is ridiculous. What percentage of horses in other countries train on lasix during speed training, 5% at the most? It is an extremely small percent. It would only be horses that are considered bad bleeders.

Well, it's hard to argue against your made up, imaginary guesses when you pretend they are fact.

The lasix haters need to face the truth: lasix isn't a nasty performance enhancing drug, it's an excellent therapeutic drug that prevents a common, rampant bleeding problem in horses lungs. It's a medical problem that is a horse problem, not a racing problem.

Some in the industry have done a good job brainwashing the non-reasoning believers otherwise, based upon old and now-proven-false information from decades ago. This purposeful blindness, while ignoring the real drug problems in this sport, using the silly straw men of steroids and lasix, is a direct threat to the continued existence of this industry due to their purposeful ignorance. Let alone the health and welfare of the horse.

And my statement as zero to do with getting every single illegal and performance-enhancing drug out of the sport - which is exactly what the veterinary community wants to do, and is trying to do. And I agree with that stance of zero tolerance for performance-enhancing drugs completely.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Well, it's hard to argue against your made up, imaginary guesses when you pretend they are fact.

Does it really matter whether it is 1%, 2%, 5% or 6%? It is a very small number. Do you dispute that?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Does it really matter whether it is 1%, 2%, 5% or 6%? It is a very small number. Do you dispute that?

Yes, I do. You made that number up out of thin air and you have absolutely zero support for it. The truth is the majority of trainers use lasix in the morning, on days the horse will be asked for maximum speed, to prevent EIPH. It's common, it's good medical welfare of the horse practice, and it's why, during drug tests in some foreign countries, a far lower level of frusemide is permitted in the blood, than exists in the USA.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes, I do. You made that number up out of thin air and you have absolutely zero support for it. The truth is the majority of trainers use lasix in the morning, on days the horse will be asked for maximum speed, to prevent EIPH. It's common, it's good medical welfare of the horse practice, and it's why, during drug tests in some foreign countries, a far lower level of frusemide is permitted in the blood, than exists in the USA.

You are making that up. You claim the majority of horses work on lasix in the morning? A majority means over 50%. You have absolutely zero evidence to support that. Even in the US, not even close to 50% of horses work on lasix. I get the vet bills on all of our horses from all different trainers. Most trainers don't work most of their horses on lasix. From reviewng the vet bills every month on over 100 horses over the last 5 years with 15 different trainers, I estimate around 15% of the horses work on lasix. Sure there are some trainers here that work practically all of their horses on lasix. But there are also plenty of trainers that practically never work their horses on lasix. In Eurpope, I would bet the number is much lower. Do you think the number in Europe is higher than in the US? There is no way.

[citycat]

I really dont care about what Europe does and who says what they do is best for the horse? They race about 6 months of the year and horses race about 6 times a year, mostly on grass.

Unless you have horses that race in Ky you are really missing the entire focus of this topic which is the very bad position a ban on Lasix would be if it is only in Ky.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You are making that up. You claim the majority of horses work on lasix in the morning? A majority means over 50%. You have absolutely zero evidence to support that. Even in the US, not even close to 50% of horses work on lasix. I get the vet bills on all of our horses from all different trainers. Most trainers don't work most of their horses on lasix. From reviewng the vet bills every month on over 100 horses over the last 5 years with 15 different trainers, I estimate around 15% of the horses work on lasix. Sure there are some trainers here that work practically all of their horses on lasix. But there are also plenty of trainers that practically never work their horses on lasix. In Eurpope, I would bet the number is much lower. Do you think the number in Europe is higher than in the US? There is no way.

European woman don't shave their armpits, body hair and god knows what is going on between their legs. Should American women do the same?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You are making that up. You claim the majority of horses work on lasix in the morning? A majority means over 50%. You have absolutely zero evidence to support that. Even in the US, not even close to 50% of horses work on lasix. I get the vet bills on all of our horses from all different trainers. Most trainers don't work most of their horses on lasix. From reviewng the vet bills every month on over 100 horses over the last 5 years with 15 different trainers, I estimate around 15% of the horses work on lasix. Sure there are some trainers here that work practically all of their horses on lasix. But there are also plenty of trainers that practically never work their horses on lasix. In Eurpope, I would bet the number is much lower. Do you think the number in Europe is higher than in the US? There is no way.

You judge by your vet bills, I judge by the many trainers I see doing it, by knowing the vets that are giving the injections, by talking to the vets in other countries (just spent a conference day with three vets from Australia, and yes, we talked about horse racing and lasix), by what the veterinary industry knows about lasix use in the racing industry.

The unalienable truth is this: lasix is the most effective therapeutic drug we have to attenuate EIPH, and that medical help should not be taken away from the horse. Either in the morning, or in a race.

But most especially, the therapeutic value of lasix should not be used as a cheap straw man substitute for dealing with real drug problems in racing.