The Real Championship Meet

[tjfrab]

Given Steve's attachment to NYRA and frequent slant that way, I guess that's the expected response I should have figured on getting. I suppose that's also the reason the post thread had to be moved to the back room. The point about the BC is fair and we'll see how it plays out in 4 weeks.

I can't argue that several favorites for BC races ran last weekend at New York. What I'm interested in is playing full fields and having fun with the hobby. New York's been running their cards with 50% maidens for months now- even at Saratoga on weekends. Again, fair point on the top dirt horses but I doubt there are many (if any) who follow the sport as weekend bettors who were excited to see those stakes race draws last week. Seriously, when you perused the entries on the internet last Wednesday for "Super Saturday", were you excited about playing those races?

I would also think that these types of disappointments are contributing to nearly every facet of the sport continuing to decline. There are too many graded races out there and I believe there are a bunch of downgrades needed. But why downgrade the ones that draw big, competitive fields over the 4 or 5 horse fields we've seen in New York that have 1 or 2 decent horses in each of them. Flower Bowl had 1 top horse. Vosburgh was a good race but I don't think Giant Ryan's a champion horse. Beldame, 2 good horses. Kelso, 2 good horses. Jockey Club Gold Cup, 2 good horses. Turf Classic, 1 top horse.

For my money, Keenland's opening weekend is a welcome passtime, albeit a brief interruption to the watered down racing in most of the country.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by tjfrab

Given Steve's attachment to NYRA and frequent slant that way, I guess that's the expected response I should have figured on getting. I suppose that's also the reason the post thread had to be moved to the back room. The point about the BC is fair and we'll see how it plays out in 4 weeks.

I can't argue that several favorites for BC races ran last weekend at New York. What I'm interested in is playing full fields and having fun with the hobby. New York's been running their cards with 50% maidens for months now- even at Saratoga on weekends. Again, fair point on the top dirt horses but I doubt there are many (if any) who follow the sport as weekend bettors who were excited to see those stakes race draws last week. Seriously, when you perused the entries on the internet last Wednesday for "Super Saturday", were you excited about playing those races?

I would also think that these types of disappointments are contributing to nearly every facet of the sport continuing to decline. There are too many graded races out there and I believe there are a bunch of downgrades needed. But why downgrade the ones that draw big, competitive fields over the 4 or 5 horse fields we've seen in New York that have 1 or 2 decent horses in each of them. Flower Bowl had 1 top horse. Vosburgh was a good race but I don't think Giant Ryan's a champion horse. Beldame, 2 good horses. Kelso, 2 good horses. Jockey Club Gold Cup, 2 good horses. Turf Classic, 1 top horse.

For my money, Keenland's opening weekend is a welcome passtime, albeit a brief interruption to the watered down racing in most of the country.

Races are graded due to the QUALITY of the participants and not the QUANTITY.

The title of your thread shows your agenda....not Steve's. To continue to post in this matter only devalues your contributions.

For what it's worth, not that you even deserve to be corrected, there were 3 Grade 1 winners in the Kelso and 2 in the Joe Hirsch Turf Classic....but I guess you failed to notice last year's winner.

Your bias is duly noted.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by tjfrab

Given Steve's attachment to NYRA and frequent slant that way, I guess that's the expected response I should have figured on getting. I suppose that's also the reason the post thread had to be moved to the back room. The point about the BC is fair and we'll see how it plays out in 4 weeks.

I can't argue that several favorites for BC races ran last weekend at New York. What I'm interested in is playing full fields and having fun with the hobby. New York's been running their cards with 50% maidens for months now- even at Saratoga on weekends. Again, fair point on the top dirt horses but I doubt there are many (if any) who follow the sport as weekend bettors who were excited to see those stakes race draws last week. Seriously, when you perused the entries on the internet last Wednesday for "Super Saturday", were you excited about playing those races?

I would also think that these types of disappointments are contributing to nearly every facet of the sport continuing to decline. There are too many graded races out there and I believe there are a bunch of downgrades needed. But why downgrade the ones that draw big, competitive fields over the 4 or 5 horse fields we've seen in New York that have 1 or 2 decent horses in each of them. Flower Bowl had 1 top horse. Vosburgh was a good race but I don't think Giant Ryan's a champion horse. Beldame, 2 good horses. Kelso, 2 good horses. Jockey Club Gold Cup, 2 good horses. Turf Classic, 1 top horse.

For my money, Keenland's opening weekend is a welcome passtime, albeit a brief interruption to the watered down racing in most of the country.

Dude, Keeneland is a travesty, and I do not know a single racing fan personally who looks forward to their races anymore.

And don't be thinking I'm a NYRA fan boy. Whatever it's faults (there are more than enough), I'll take their racing over KEE any day.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by tjfrab

Given Steve's attachment to NYRA and frequent slant that way, I guess that's the expected response I should have figured on getting. I suppose that's also the reason the post thread had to be moved to the back room. The point about the BC is fair and we'll see how it plays out in 4 weeks..

Huh? Moved to the back room? The Paddock is the 'front room', where topics are assured greatest exposure and potential for discussion. You were looking for a discussion, correct? Or was it just a cheap shot directed at NYRA seeking to get a rise out of me and/or Andy?

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Huh? Moved to the back room? The Paddock is the 'front room', where topics are assured greatest exposure and potential for discussion. You were looking for a discussion, correct? Or was it just a cheap shot directed at NYRA seeking to get a rise out of me and/or Andy?

You know what i find interesting?

This tag team thing...

Tjfrab has 11 posts. Most people are too intimidated to begins threads at this point.

Welltakethat has 17.

Now there are people on this forum who encourage new people or lurkers to post. Maybe not too often but we have gone out of our way (cause we want them to obviously).

This though...

If one looks back over their posts... they both post on Graded Stakes Downgrades...

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...965#post795965

... and on the Dunkirk caller thread...

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28717

Gee they even sound alike.

I think we're a fun bunch here.

Even the couple of people I cannot stand I at least find entertaining and am glad to read their stuff.

This? I know i should have better things to do then to find old posts by a couple of people who are here I don't know.. to stir the pot (?) (... and agree with each other!) but hey I'm sick so it's either this or lose money down under.

I chose this.

Okay carry on.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

You know what i find interesting?

This tag team thing...

Tjfrab has 11 posts. Most people are too intimidated to begins threads at this point.

Welltakethat has 17.

Now there are people on this forum who encourage new people or lurkers to post. Maybe not too often but we have gone out of our way (cause we want them to obviously).

This though...

If one looks back over their posts... they both post on Graded Stakes Downgrades...

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...965#post795965

... and on the Dunkirk caller thread...

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28717

Gee they even sound alike.

I think we're a fun bunch here.

Even the couple of people I cannot stand I at least find entertaining and am glad to read their stuff.

This? I know i should have better things to do then to find old posts by a couple of people who are here I don't know.. to stir the pot (?) (... and agree with each other!) but hey I'm sick so it's either this or lose money down under.

I chose this.

Okay carry on.

I saw the same thing. It aint random.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

You know what i find interesting?

This tag team thing...

Tjfrab has 11 posts. Most people are too intimidated to begins threads at this point.

Welltakethat has 17.

Now there are people on this forum who encourage new people or lurkers to post. Maybe not too often but we have gone out of our way (cause we want them to obviously).

This though...

If one looks back over their posts... they both post on Graded Stakes Downgrades...

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...965#post795965

... and on the Dunkirk caller thread...

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28717

Gee they even sound alike.

I think we're a fun bunch here.

Even the couple of people I cannot stand I at least find entertaining and am glad to read their stuff.

This? I know i should have better things to do then to find old posts by a couple of people who are here I don't know.. to stir the pot (?) (... and agree with each other!) but hey I'm sick so it's either this or lose money down under.

I chose this.

Okay carry on.

Why would anyone feel intimidated? I mean, yeah, if you are going to purposefully come across as a reeetard, then please feel free to feel intimidated.

Otherwise, I think new posters are typically given some slack.

What's the worst thing that can happen (in regards to being intimidated away from posting)? Serling will come to your door with a baseball bat and bust your kneecaps?

DrugS will throw a sock at you?

Hoss will say something mean spirited?

Maybe Coach will post some weird photo with an even weirder caption?

The people that reacted the worst to new posters, and had the greatest amount of intolerance, namely TFF, have been eliminated.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I think we're a fun bunch here.

Even the couple of people I cannot stand I at least find entertaining and am glad to read their stuff.

Please insert names here___________________.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by 3kings

Please insert names here___________________.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cardus

It was embarrassing to listen to TVG's Shrupp

and has been almost since day #1 of TVG.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Cardus

It was embarrassing to listen to TVG's Shrupp say after today's Alcibiades that Whatever's Kitten gained an automatic bid to the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies race.

The shame of it is that Whatever's Kitten might be better suited to the Juvenile Fillies Turf race than to the Juvenile Fillies Dirt race.

Go Keeneland!

There are a whole host of "Win and You're In" races that are an embarrassment. That the Alcibiades is designated a "Win and You're In" race for the Juvenile Fillies isn't Keeneland's fault; it's the Breeders' Cup's fault.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by tjfrab

I would also think that these types of disappointments are contributing to nearly every facet of the sport continuing to decline. There are too many graded races out there and I believe there are a bunch of downgrades needed. But why downgrade the ones that draw big, competitive fields over the 4 or 5 horse fields we've seen in New York that have 1 or 2 decent horses in each of them. Flower Bowl had 1 top horse. Vosburgh was a good race but I don't think Giant Ryan's a champion horse. Beldame, 2 good horses. Kelso, 2 good horses. Jockey Club Gold Cup, 2 good horses. Turf Classic, 1 top horse.

I agree that, from a wagering standpoint, the Super Saturday cards that NYRA has put on during the past few years have been disappointing. They have become days where "the sport" is emphasized. I also agree that there are too many graded races and that a bunch of downgrades are in order, but the answer is not downgrading the Grade I races that NYRA runs. With so many choices out there, when the division leaders show up in New York, as they invariably do year after year, the "second tier" horses go elsewhere. (That's not to say that I agree with every move NYRA makes. I was not a fan of moving the Tempted and Nashua, which both produced short fields of questionable quality; at a time where there is a dearth of top horses, I'm not a fan of running the Kelso at a mile on dirt the same weekend you are running the Vosburgh and Jockey Club Gold Cup.)

The Alcibiades and Breeders Futurity were two races that never deserved Grade I status and the switch to Polytrack has only made those grades more questionable. And I say this all as someone who makes a trip to Keeneland each year and generally enjoys the racing that they produce.

[tjfrab]

Not looking to take a cheap shot to get a rise out of anybody in response to Steve and for the record my first priority from a betting standpoint has always been New York tracks since I started in the early 90's. I'm not anti NYRA biased as accused in another post either but am frustrated by their product. My sole bias is towards competitive racing with QUALITY betting options. While a BC winner may not be running in the Keenland stakes, they are competitive and highly bettable. And it isn't just the poly/dirt racing. Their turf stakes are superior also.

And sorry, I just don't see how you can sell those races last week or other maiden drenched cards as good, high quality racing. It's been getting worse in recent meets. Not sure why it's so difficult to admit that. That's not a jab, just a fact and I want it to get better.

[welltakethat]

A lot of good points made by 'parsix' First off, why run the Kelso and the Vosburgh on the same day when they draw the same horses. Second, why move two year old stakes to the week before you run the 'premier' two year old stakes of the fall. It dilutes all fields involved. Saratoga does the same thing with their Friday / Saturday stakes carded on the same conditions. Combined with the 50% maiden cardings with many firsters or state breds there is not much to enjoy from a betting perspective.

If you want to bet on 2-5's and 4-5's and tell your friends that you had ten bucks on Harve De Grace then that's a different type of player than where many would align themselves on this form i'd think. And if you want to crown champions (ie Zenyatta) for running on their home tracks against inferior fields then that's on those who decide. To me a win by Gio Ponti against that Shadwell Mile field is 10x more impressive than Harve De Grace because he had to beat 7 quality horses not one overmatched 3yo. And that's the shortest field of any of their stakes.

I'm not sure how anyone could wrip keeneland from a betting perspective. In terms of easy slam dunk handicapping I'm pretty sure that is what a 250 dollar pk4 across the 4 stakes at Belmont on Saturday says to me. Today there are some nice opportunities in that Jamaica field but last Saturday was unbettable on a race by race basis save pounding low priced favorites, I'm not sure how that could be argued.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by welltakethat

A lot of good points made by 'parsix' First off, why run the Kelso and the Vosburgh on the same day when they draw the same horses. Second, why move two year old stakes to the week before you run the 'premier' two year old stakes of the fall. It dilutes all fields involved. Saratoga does the same thing with their Friday / Saturday stakes carded on the same conditions. Combined with the 50% maiden cardings with many firsters or state breds there is not much to enjoy from a betting perspective.

If you want to bet on 2-5's and 4-5's and tell your friends that you had ten bucks on Harve De Grace then that's a different type of player than where many would align themselves on this form i'd think. And if you want to crown champions (ie Zenyatta) for running on their home tracks against inferior fields then that's on those who decide. To me a win by Gio Ponti against that Shadwell Mile field is 10x more impressive than Harve De Grace because he had to beat 7 quality horses not one overmatched 3yo. And that's the shortest field of any of their stakes.

I'm not sure how anyone could wrip keeneland from a betting perspective. In terms of easy slam dunk handicapping I'm pretty sure that is what a 250 dollar pk4 across the 4 stakes at Belmont on Saturday says to me. Today there are some nice opportunities in that Jamaica field but last Saturday was unbettable on a race by race basis save pounding low priced favorites, I'm not sure how that could be argued.

No one is saying betting on Havre De Grace last weekend was fun and I can't imagine anyone in this thread did. But when there are so many options for connections to duck and dodge, for big, big money, what are racing organizations supposed to do?

Last Saturday was ruined because of the weather. Not really fair to compare it. And while my Saratoga meet was one of the worst ever, there were plenty of wagering opportunities everyday.

[welltakethat]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

No one is saying betting on Havre De Grace last weekend was fun and I can't imagine anyone in this thread did. But when there are so many options for connections to duck and dodge, for big, big money, what are racing organizations supposed to do?

I completely agree re too many options. I believe Steve had mentioned in an earlier post to me on a different issue having some sort of shared series across tracks where divisions are mapped out and campaigns are naturally built. I think without cooperation the sport will continue to spiral down. As you said, if the cotillion is going to run the same week as the beldame and the spinster is the next week, the only solution is to more actively recruit horses from other circuits or move the race. The 4 horse field run away to me does nothing to enhance Harve De Grace's resume, great win in the Woodward by her and she's a great horse. Better than Zenyatta to me. But if this was Europe sheda been in the Gold Cup instead and maybe the field for the Beldame would have been better.

As far as synthetic goes and turf horses benefiting and it being a crap shoot, I guess most on this thread with that view missed the Kentucky Derby this year. I could be misremembering but didn't Animal Kingdom prep on the poly. Oh yea and he won the derby. And ran big in the preakness.

Steve - Thanks for having Plonk on. Heard it on the replay this morning. He to me with his statistical analysis and trending is maybe the top handicapping mind in the public perview today and his Keeneland information that he posts on their site is tremendous.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by welltakethat

As far as synthetic goes and turf horses benefiting and it being a crap shoot, I guess most on this thread with that view missed the Kentucky Derby this year. I could be misremembering but didn't Animal Kingdom prep on the poly. Oh yea and he won the derby. And ran big in the preakness.

Quite an analogy. My guess is you weren't captain of the debate team.

[tjfrab]

Blackthroatedwind- Regarding the title, as I said in a subsequent post, we'll have to see how it plays out in 4 weeks. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one who winds up being "full of sh t" - as you put it. If you would have preferred that I titled it Best Racing In The Country Right Now, then my mistake.

By the way, before you completely toss the poly form or kill their grading, you may want to remember there've been 2 derby winners the last 5 years coming off poly (one Keenland, one Turfway). When's the last time a Wood Memorial runner impacted the derby (which is the biggest race there is)- 2003.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by tjfrab

Not looking to take a cheap shot to get a rise out of anybody in response to Steve and for the record my first priority from a betting standpoint has always been New York tracks since I started in the early 90's. I'm not anti NYRA biased as accused in another post either but am frustrated by their product. My sole bias is towards competitive racing with QUALITY betting options. While a BC winner may not be running in the Keenland stakes, they are competitive and highly bettable. And it isn't just the poly/dirt racing. Their turf stakes are superior also.

And sorry, I just don't see how you can sell those races last week or other maiden drenched cards as good, high quality racing. It's been getting worse in recent meets. Not sure why it's so difficult to admit that. That's not a jab, just a fact and I want it to get better.

People have responded to you and you've managed to ignore pretty much all of their responses. Not sure why, but it's tough to discuss things like that. Not attacking (because I can see where this is going to end up) but you've expressed opinions, people have responded and your responses are basically you reiterating the same thing.

Since you want it to get better, what should they be doing that they aren't currently? I realize that is a loaded question, but I assume you have some ideas, and I'd like to hear them.

The Beldame was a two horse race because the Cotillion at Parx is worth twice as much (ridiculous) and is run the same day. Wouldn't the Beldame have looked a lot different with It's Tricky and Plum Pretty? What is NYRA supposed to do in that instance?

I actually enjoy the Keeneland meets, from a wagering standpoint, but it's important to note these large fields we see are because connections are more apt to take a shot on that surface than they are on dirt. Not sure why, but I expect this to change (not overnight) in the next few years with the slots up and running at NYRA.

To answer your question, yes I was excited last Wednesday to bet Saturday's Belmont card. The weather was a big damper.

[Mawhip]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

People have responded to you and you've managed to ignore pretty much all of their responses. Not sure why, but it's tough to discuss things like that. Not attacking (because I can see where this is going to end up) but you've expressed opinions, people have responded and your responses are basically you reiterating the same thing.

Since you want it to get better, what should they be doing that they aren't currently? I realize that is a loaded question, but I assume you have some ideas, and I'd like to hear them.

The Beldame was a two horse race because the Cotillion at Parx is worth twice as much (ridiculous) and is run the same day. Wouldn't the Beldame have looked a lot different with It's Tricky and Plum Pretty? What is NYRA supposed to do in that instance?

I actually enjoy the Keeneland meets, from a wagering standpoint, but it's important to note these large fields we see are because connections are more apt to take a shot on that surface than they are on dirt. Not sure why, but I expect this to change (not overnight) in the next few years with the slots up and running at NYRA.

To answer your question, yes I was excited last Wednesday to bet Saturday's Belmont card. The weather was a big damper.

NYRA could restore the purse to the level it was a few years ago. At 750K, you might have got Plum or Tricky or even Blind Luck.