Investors lose a trillion dollars in one day

[Clip-Clop]

[quote=Riot;798575]

Originally Posted by joeydb

This is what liberals consider to be fairness. You work your ass off, and instead of getting principal plus interest, you get a modest payment per month until you croak, assuming it's solvent.[/QUOTE

If only you bothered with facts. The truth is, that most people get more out of Social Security and Medicare than they put in.

You know, that's why you have been told to scream it's broke?

You can't have it both ways

And THAT is exactly the problem. Well put.

[Riot]

[quote=Clip-Clop;798579]

Originally Posted by Riot

And THAT is exactly the problem. Well put.

And that just started next year. And all it needs is a little tweek, as we've done all the other times it was needed. Solvent for decades.

This attack on Social Security is nothing but ginned-up Republican attempts to destroy it and give Wall Street the funds. They've been trying to do it since Reagan created the fiction of the "welfare queen driving a Cadillac".

How did Wall Street do in 2008 with your retirement fund?
did they do Friday with your retirement fund?

Thank goodness all our citizens have the safety net of Social Security. It was a good idea started for widows and orphans, and it's good for all of us.

Anybody that doesn't like that should move to another country. The trouble is, all first-world countries, with better lifestyles than us - more vacation time, earlier retirement, better health care, better quality of living, less expensive housing and food, and better perceived happiness - tax more than us. You can be taxed less - move to a second or third world country.

A good society, a good country, isn't created in a vacuum of selfishness and independence from society.

[Danzig]

[quote=Riot;798587]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

And that just started next year. And all it needs is a little tweek, as we've done all the other times it was needed. Solvent for decades.

This attack on Social Security is nothing but ginned-up Republican attempts to destroy it and give Wall Street the funds. They've been trying to do it since Reagan created the fiction of the "welfare queen driving a Cadillac".

How did Wall Street do in 2008 with your retirement fund?
did they do Friday with your retirement fund?

Thank goodness all our citizens have the safety net of Social Security. It was a good idea started for widows and orphans, and it's good for all of us.

Anybody that doesn't like that should move to another country. The trouble is, all first-world countries, with better lifestyles than us - more vacation time, earlier retirement, better health care, better quality of living, less expensive housing and food, and better perceived happiness - tax more than us. You can be taxed less - move to a second or third world country.

A good society, a good country, isn't created in a vacuum of selfishness and independence from society.

it makes me laugh every time you say ss needs just a tweak-the whole budget needs an overhaul. everyone recognizes that entitlements are growing astronomically, and are becoming an ever larger drain on the fed. ss might only need a tweak, but the overall picture needs far, far more than that.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it makes me laugh every time you say ss needs just a tweak-the whole budget needs an overhaul. everyone recognizes that entitlements are growing astronomically, and are becoming an ever larger drain on the fed. ss might only need a tweak, but the overall picture needs far, far more than that.

The truth of it is that Social Security is fine for a long time, years and years, and doesn't need more than a tweek. So laugh away. Especially at those who have been ginned up to believe otherwise, that's it's some disaster about to befall us, or a secret Ponzi scheme doomed to fail. False.

Now, Medicaid? Deep trouble, because the sharing $$ states are broke. The feds have been carrying the states with stimulus money for this. Medicare? Getting to trouble, but the $500,000 billion taken out with Obamacare for duplicate provider services was a start, and that extended it's life by five or seven years or so.

"Growing entitlements" isn't a problem by itself. Big entitlement programs isn't a problem when you have a country with 330 million people and have alot of people on it. The size isn't a concern. We are not Germany. We have a growing population. That fact that costs are growing isn't the problem, as the systems were designed, and are generally working well, to be rather self-funded. More people = more income into system = more costs.

The problem is that we are reaching the bubble where the "baby boomer" generation is, so that is a financial hurdle we have to get through with Medicare. (By the way, that bubble goes away afterwards. It doesn't keep increasing)

This is at a time of high unemployment, so less cash is being contributed into the system, too.

If the government would simply allow Medicare to bargain Rx costs like private insurers do, that would save trillions over time. And open it up to those 50 and older. That influx of healthier people will be huge.

We have to make health care less expensive. We are the most expensive health care delivery system in the world, it's 1/5 of our economy - most countries it's far less, even if they have nationalized medicine.

Of course, the Republicans won't allow "expanded communistic socialistic national health care OMG!"

I'm not really in favor of raising the age or having a test - everyone paid in, everyone should get that back, even if you have alot of money in your old age. Raising the age for Medicare is a concern now, as they can't find insurance. Nobody else will insure them. Maybe after 2014, when the insurance exchanges are available. But to do it now is just throwing them to the wolves of non-insurance.

Look - these are not impossible problems to surmount. The main setbacks have been the costs of the wars (borrowed) and our massive decrease in revenue (Bush tax cuts - yes, renewed by Obama - money borrowed to keep paying for what they did) Those two things alone are half our debt. We let the Bush tax cuts expire, and our debt is halved in about 10 years, doing nothing else.

Without the above, our debt is very, very manageable, and very low, relative to other first world countries. This isn't even a hard fix - unless you are completely against any increase in revenue, or allowing other people to have security with Medicare, as the Republicans are.

Did you know the Republicans already announced they will not put anybody on the deficit committee that will be in favor of any revenue increases whatsoever? They are already holding the debt ceiling committee, and the automatic triggers, hostage? Already? And just this weekend Cantor sent a letter to his House Republicans telling them to stand strong on no revenue increases, no matter what? Yeah, that will help. Let's have some more Republican "sky is falling!" scenario, so you can privatize more things (Paul Ryan budget - which even saves part of the Obamacare savings, BTW, because they work and are real) and hand off more money to Wall Street.

The elections in Wisconsin are very important today - they do start the 2012 election season. Which way will this country choose to go? The Democratic way, or the Republican way? Reject union-busting, teachers and firefighters as demons, privatizing every last cent - or doing something to help all citzens, to grow this society into something better?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

The truth of it is that Social Security is fine for a long time, years and years, and doesn't need more than a tweek. So laugh away. Especially at those who have been ginned up to believe otherwise, that's it's some disaster about to befall us, or a secret Ponzi scheme doomed to fail. False.

Now, Medicaid? Deep trouble, because the sharing $$ states are broke. The feds have been carrying the states with stimulus money for this. Medicare? Getting to trouble, but the $500,000 billion taken out with Obamacare for duplicate provider services was a start, and that extended it's life by five or seven years or so.

"Growing entitlements" isn't a problem by itself. Big entitlement programs isn't a problem when you have a country with 330 million people and have alot of people on it. The size isn't a concern. We are not Germany. We have a growing population. That fact that costs are growing isn't the problem, as the systems were designed, and are generally working well, to be rather self-funded. More people = more income into system = more costs.

The problem is that we are reaching the bubble where the "baby boomer" generation is, so that is a financial hurdle we have to get through with Medicare. (By the way, that bubble goes away afterwards. It doesn't keep increasing)

This is at a time of high unemployment, so less cash is being contributed into the system, too.

If the government would simply allow Medicare to bargain Rx costs like private insurers do, that would save trillions over time. And open it up to those 50 and older. That influx of healthier people will be huge.

We have to make health care less expensive. We are the most expensive health care delivery system in the world, it's 1/5 of our economy - most countries it's far less, even if they have nationalized medicine.

Of course, the Republicans won't allow "expanded communistic socialistic national health care OMG!"

I'm not really in favor of raising the age or having a test - everyone paid in, everyone should get that back, even if you have alot of money in your old age. Raising the age for Medicare is a concern now, as they can't find insurance. Nobody else will insure them. Maybe after 2014, when the insurance exchanges are available. But to do it now is just throwing them to the wolves of non-insurance.

Look - these are not impossible problems to surmount. The main setbacks have been the costs of the wars (borrowed) and our massive decrease in revenue (Bush tax cuts - yes, renewed by Obama - money borrowed to keep paying for what they did) Those two things alone are half our debt. We let the Bush tax cuts expire, and our debt is halved in about 10 years, doing nothing else.

Without the above, our debt is very, very manageable, and very low, relative to other first world countries. This isn't even a hard fix - unless you are completely against any increase in revenue, or allowing other people to have security with Medicare, as the Republicans are.

Did you know the Republicans already announced they will not put anybody on the deficit committee that will be in favor of any revenue increases whatsoever? They are already holding the debt ceiling committee, and the automatic triggers, hostage? Already? And just this weekend Cantor sent a letter to his House Republicans telling them to stand strong on no revenue increases, no matter what? Yeah, that will help. Let's have some more Republican "sky is falling!" scenario, so you can privatize more things (Paul Ryan budget - which even saves part of the Obamacare savings, BTW, because they work and are real) and hand off more money to Wall Street.

The elections in Wisconsin are very important today - they do start the 2012 election season. Which way will this country choose to go? The Democratic way, or the Republican way? Reject union-busting, teachers and firefighters as demons, privatizing every last cent - or doing something to help all citzens, to grow this society into something better?

once again, it is NOT whether ss itself remains solvent that gives me pause, it is the affect that ss(and of course medicare) will have in future on the total budget picture.


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...ress-to-shrink

Such pronouncements have long been a staple of blue-ribbon fiscal panels, most recently President Obama's National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform. But with the first of the baby boomers eligible to retire this year, the matter is taking on greater urgency. If current policy does not change, rising retiree health costs and claims on Social Security will propel mandatory spending to levels never seen before, squeezing out room for future discretionary spending.

Here's the glide path the US is on:

•By 2025, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and interest on the federal debt would claim all federal revenues.

•Interest on the national debt would rise to nearly $1 trillion nine years from now, up from $200 billion today.

•US debt held by the public would grow to 185 percent of the national economy by 2035, driving up interest rates and lowering growth and living standards.

i disagree that there is a need for more than a minor tweak. a big part of the problem is the continued insistence that ss is not affecting our deficit. or that things can wait til the future for a fix-pols insist on that so they can pass the buck, because they won't have to worry about their re-election; some guy down the line will have to be the one concerned.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

The truth of it is that Social Security is fine for a long time, years and years, and doesn't need more than a tweek. So laugh away. Especially at those who have been ginned up to believe otherwise, that's it's some disaster about to befall us, or a secret Ponzi scheme doomed to fail. False.

When a fund that is supposed to have $3.6 trillion actually has zero but $3.6 trillion in IOU's from an entity that held only 1 percent of the principal and the only way 'investors' will ever get a return is if 'new investors' are either forced or coerced to pay for that return, there is no secret. It is a Ponzi scheme.

Again not a dime of future SS taxes should be spent on anything but SS benefits. The IOU's should begin being paid off with 'real assets' not special issue promises. Doing this alone would reduce the debt by $3.6 trillion and force DC to control / cut spending while protecting our own.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

When a fund that is supposed to have $3.6 trillion actually has zero but $3.6 trillion in IOU's from an entity that held only 1 percent of the principal and the only way 'investors' will ever get a return is if 'new investors' are either forced or coerced to pay for that return, there is no secret. It is a Ponzi scheme.

So you are banking on the United States of America ceasing to exist. That is the only scenario that will fullfill your wish for Social Security failure.

You really should consider moving to another country, where you would be happier. Rather than trying to dismantle this country. Move where you are not taxed and forced to suffer by taking societal benefits. That would have to be a second or third world country, though. All the remaining AAA countries have socialized medicine or national healthcare available to all, longer vacation hours, earlier retirement, better pensions, goverment loans for small business startup, maternity leave, etc.

The truth is that Social Security will pay out 100% of it's benefits until 2037, and then pay out 78% of benefits if nothing at all is done. But, like the 20 or so previous times we gave already fixed this "OMG a Disaster!", a small tweek will be made.

Social Security is one of the most successful government programs in the world. It has never missed a payment to any beneficiary.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/assets.html

The Social Security Trust fund: