Spectacular Bid VS Seattle Slew

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Betsy

Why is it bad for a front-runner to be one-dimensional (esp. when his one dimension was spectacular) and a closer not to be?

Spectacular Bid wasn't a one-dimensional closer - on 7 different occasions he won Graded Stakes races in wire-to-wire fashion. On 5 different occasions he won Graded Stakes from 5 lengths back or further after a half mile. But ideally - he was a presser.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Spectacular Bid wasn't a one-dimensional closer - on 7 different occasions he won Graded Stakes races in wire-to-wire fashion. On 5 different occasions he won Graded Stakes from 5 lengths back or further after a half mile. But ideally - he was a presser.

I wasn't referring to Bid, I was just referring to your calling Slew one-dimensional. That may be true, but it was one hell of a dimension .We see front-runners call that all the time, and it's got a negative connotation..........but closers are also one-dimensional and they don't get called on it. In any case, I'm not sure what's wrong with being a front-runner especially if that horse is Slew and he has the heart of a lion.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Betsy

I wasn't referring to Bid, I was just referring to your calling Slew one-dimensional. That may be true, but it was one hell of a dimension .We see front-runners call that all the time, and it's got a negative connotation..........but closers are also one-dimensional and they don't get called on it.

Of course closers get called on for being one-dimensional.

I agree there is no shame in being one-dimensional... especially as a speed horse - Ruffian was, Man O' War was a lot of horses with great ability were. A horse mentioned earlier in this thread Bold Forbes certainly was as well.

Still - the preferred running style is always one that can set a pace if it needs to or take back if it needs to. Horses like this have an advantage. A rabbit can cost a one-dimensional speed horse its best race. A slow pace - or just simple seperation from an honest pace can cost a one-dimensional closer its best race.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Of course closers get called on for being one-dimensional.

I agree there is no shame in being one-dimensional... especially as a speed horse - Ruffian was, Man O' War was a lot of horses with great ability were. A horse mentioned earlier in this thread Bold Forbes certainly was as well.

Still - the preferred running style is always one that can set a pace if it needs to or take back if it needs to. Horses like this have an advantage. A rabbit can cost a one-dimensional speed horse its best race. A slow pace - or just simple seperation from an honest pace can cost a one-dimensional closer its best race.

Well I agree that being a one or the other has it's disadvantages. I've always loved the idea of a horse just wanting to run so badly that you couldn't quite keep him down - Slew was like that. MOW was like that as well - but he was another who's one dimension was so great as to render it meaningless.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Betsy

MOW was like that as well - but he was another who's one dimension was so great as to render it meaningless.

That - and race horses were like almost extinct when he raced.

I have my doubts Man O' War even deserved my own #15 overall rating I gave him yesterday - Discovery, a horse fairly close to his time peroid, is a far more impressive horse to me.

The problem is that you look at lists like the one Bloodhorse did and see Man O' War #1 VS Discovery #37 ... and, in general, Man O' War seemed to have the greater reputation of people in the press at that time who saw them both.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

That - and race horses were like almost extinct when he raced.

I have my doubts Man O' War even deserved my own #15 overall rating I gave him yesterday - Discovery, a horse fairly close to his time peroid, is a far more impressive horse to me.

The problem is that you look at lists like the one Bloodhorse did and see Man O' War #1 VS Discovery #37 ... and, in general, Man O' War seemed to have the greater reputation of people in the press at that time who saw them both.

I happen to be one who supports MOW at #1 (granted he's my all-time favorite horse), so I don't have any problem with his reputation among racing people. If people want to diminish him because of the foal crops, that's fine - I can't argue with them - but it's not an argument I find favor and, in truth, it's nothing that can be proved or disproved.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Betsy

I happen to be one who supports MOW at #1 (granted he's my all-time favorite horse), so I don't have any problem with his reputation among racing people. If people want to diminish him because of the foal crops, that's fine - I can't argue with them - but it's not an argument I find favor and, in truth, it's nothing that can be proved or disproved.

The Easy Goer-Sunday Silence crop was over 30.5 times larger than Man O' War's crop.

It's like comparing the human population of New York City to the 30.5 times smaller human population of Henderson Nevada.

Other than Sir Barton (who never won again) Man O' War competed against 3yo competition I felt was extremely suspect.

I think everyone is so in awe of his many "never asked" wins with large winning margins in fast raw final times. A lot of those wins in match races where his opponent is being used up than eased up behind him. From looking at charts - he was a little faster horse than I thought he'd be .. but his races were nowhere near as fast as a race like Discovery's Brooklyn Handicap win - which was probably in the low 130's.

In Discovery's next race - he showed how match race form can flatter a horse. He beat a proper top older male who had just won the ultra rich Big Cap - by 30 lengths in a match race. Not some bum who was running in case Man O' War's rider fell off. Basically - once a horse is used up and beat in a match race - a smart rider is just going to pull him up. Easier to pull up a used up loser than a razor sharp champion who isn't getting pressured and wants to run.