Zenyatta

[The Bid]

I think Personal Ensign, Zarkava, Goldikova, all great racemares. I think Diva, was a very good horse, and I think w/ Ruffian its just impossible to say. I think Zenyatta is better horse than all of those, yes. Based on her accomplishments. Based on beating the best boys of her time period, and missing by a nostril after being visably better than any of the boys on the dirt. Having the modern record for string wins. Her consistancy, durability, failure to ever give a bad effort. I mean Cannon there are a lot of things that make her a great racemare.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I think Personal Ensign, Zarkava, Goldikova, all great racemares. I think Diva, was a very good horse, and I think w/ Ruffian its just impossible to say. I think Zenyatta is better horse than all of those, yes. Based on her accomplishments. Based on beating the best boys of her time period, and missing by a nostril after being visably better than any of the boys on the dirt. Having the modern record for string wins. Her consistancy, durability, failure to ever give a bad effort. I mean Cannon there are a lot of things that make her a great racemare.

So Makybe Diva winning three consecutive melbourne Cups doesnt trump a Classic win and a 2nd?

So Goldikova's three consecutive mile wins all over boys and 8 overall victories against males doesnt trump Zenyatta's?

So Personal Ensign basically doing the same thing as Zenyatta (beating males once, winning streak over three years) on a leg with 17 screws in it isn't as good as Zenyatta?

In 1983 All Along won the Arc on October 2. On the 16th she won the gr1 Rothmans by 2. On the 29th she won the Turf Classic by 8. On the 12th she won the DC International by 3. She was voted Horse of the year. Zenyatta hasnt accomplished in her career what that mare accomplished in 7 weeks.

The thing is that the boys Zenyatta beat hardly stack up, she isnt undefeated and she has very few races on her card that were anything other than beating up on weak horses. Her consistency was commendable and a great credit to Sheriffs and the consecutive streak was nice but when you take into consideration the context of accomplishment, there she is just one of many really good mares that have run in recent times.

[The Bid]

Your opinion is just different than mine.


Its impossible to put it into perspective how good Blame really is. He simply didn't run enough. Just when he starts to really show hes not an ordinary horse hes retired, so to say the boys really don't stack up....I think thats assuming Blame was just a very good horse. How can we say when his best season wont be ran?

She proved her merit on the dirt, albeit not winning, but certainly showing she was very capable of winning, and likely the best horse in the world on the dirt. She beat the best horses in the world, the boys, last year. She beat the best girls in the world the year prior. She overcame a horrible start this year and was in a photo with a horse she had no business being in. Just her ability to always fire her best race is great alone, but to do it 19 times in a row, and to beat the best boys in the world. Ill forgive who she faced this year leading up to the breeders cup. When they asked her to run, she laid it down like great ones do.

No the Melbourne Cup 3 times isnt equal to 1 breeders cup classic. Diva was readily beat by Elvstroem, whenever he left Australia he was handed his ass. She was a very nice horse but not in the same breath as these others you mention.

Goldikova, freak, best miler ever, consistantly ran that freak race.

Zarkava, unfortunately while she looked like she was any kind she raced 7 times. I think there has to be some kinda longevity Cannon. Surely a great juvenile.

PE is a no brainer

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Your opinion is just different than mine.


Its impossible to put it into perspective how good Blame really is. He simply didn't run enough. Just when he starts to really show hes not an ordinary horse hes retired, so to say the boys really don't stack up....I think thats assuming Blame was just a very good horse. How can we say when his best season wont be ran?

She proved her merit on the dirt, albeit not winning, but certainly showing she was very capable of winning, and likely the best horse in the world on the dirt. She beat the best horses in the world, the boys, last year. She beat the best girls in the world the year prior. She overcame a horrible start this year and was in a photo with a horse she had no business being in. Just her ability to always fire her best race is great alone, but to do it 19 times in a row, and to beat the best boys in the world. Ill forgive who she faced this year leading up to the breeders cup. When they asked her to run, she laid it down like great ones do.

No the Melbourne Cup 3 times isnt equal to 1 breeders cup classic. Diva was readily beat by Elvstroem, whenever he left Australia he was handed his ass. She was a very nice horse but not in the same breath as these others you mention.

Goldikova, freak, best miler ever, consistantly ran that freak race.

Zarkava, unfortunately while she looked like she was any kind she raced 7 times. I think there has to be some kinda longevity Cannon. Surely a great juvenile.

PE is a no brainer

No my opinion is almost completely based on what actually happened on the track. Much of yours admittedly is based on subjective conjecture like Blame might be better than we think. Last years field that she beat in the Classic was decidely subpar. You are basing your opinion of the horse on a streak and 2 races. I havent even mentioned the fact that almost all of her races were contested on synthetic tracks and racing on those surfaces is far kinder to horses with her style. Again I think she is a very good filly, one of the best. But beating weak fillies, the boys on the poly once and losing a close photo on dirt is not nearly as great as you want to believe. Especially when she competed on a card with a filly that has beat the boys three consecutive BC's.

[gaut10]

Because of my age, (the mid 80's is my furthest recollection of thoroughbred racing on a national stage), I will reference the "great" horses of that era (imo) to draw comparisons. Who was greater? Sunday Silence or Easy Goer? Based on head to head competition it was Sunday Silence. Both had earnings of about $5M and won at the same percentage. Or was Alysheba greater? He earned more $ ($6M) but won at "only" a 50% clip. Initially for me, it was Alysheba b/c of his trip crown bid and his thrilling defeat and win in the classic. Then for the next few years Sunday Silence and Easy Goer hooked up and had me believing they were the "greatest" I saw. NO ONE besides people who are really in the game even remember these horses, and they are widely considered the best of the past 30 years. Certainly, Personal Ensign on 3 legs was a "great" filly winning 13 of 13, but NO ONE remembers her either unless you follow the game. No one remembers Curlin or Ghostzapper (highest Beyer's ever), but they do remember Mine that Bird b/c the avg public doesn't really care about the history of the game...and that's ok b/c those are the same people who think the kentucky derby is the end all be all. Ignorant media perpetuate these misconceptions and are, rightly so, worried more about ratings than substance.

I respect everyone's opinion and right to express it, but I think these hypothetical debates provide no resolution to these issues which really have no right or wrong conclusions.

What is "Greatest" of All Time really mean? For some, it's strictly a numbers game (wins, earnings, awards, etc.) like Stray-Rod. For others, it's a combination of performance, numbers, and the ability to bring others (teammates, the game, etc.) to higher levels (ie...Derek Jeter).

Unfortunately, the games survival depends on the handle and does not discriminate on who it gets the betting dollars from. I saw preps, sluts, hoes, cowboys, lesbians, gays, blacks, whites, asians and hispanics at the windows all day. I was there for both days at CD, and I can honestly say the big mare transcends the sport. CD was electric and the roar of the crowd when he presented her at the 1/8 pole was unlike anything I have ever heard or felt.

For reasons mentioned by Mr. Simon, Z's status as an all time "great" is debatable, but can not be discounted; however, her impact and legacy as a figure transcendent of Sport is unquestionable as I firmly believe those who watched/experienced her will never forget it.

ESPN is like a tabloid magazine show. Another BC Marathon midget fighting reference.