Best Maiden Race of the meet so far...

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Watch the board. Beyond that, look for win early sires/trainers/dams/siblings.

I agree. There's nothing funnier than listening to someone tell you how a Steve Asmussen horse can't win because their works are so slow. I don't ever listen to what anyone else has to say about a workout unless I know that they saw it or look at the way that trainer prepares their horses on a day to day basis.

The winner we just had in the 2nd was one of those that pops up that you can't be ready for. The horse had gaps in her workouts, was basically purchased from the dollar store at the sale and had nothing in her pedigree to lead you to believe she could win now or ever by ten lengths at Saratoga.

NT

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

The winner we just had in the 2nd was one of those that pops up that you can't be ready for. The horse had gaps in her workouts, was basically purchased from the dollar store at the sale and had nothing in her pedigree to lead you to believe she could win now or ever by ten lengths at Saratoga.

Ralph Nicks isn't exactly John Shirreffs of 10 years ago - but he was 22% with debuters at a $6.39 ROI on paper coming in - and I don't think that stat includes his debut winner from a few days ago in the turf sprint. The ROI is so high because he had an $82 debut winner at KEE last year. Lion Heart is ok win early - and the fact that the horse sold for 11K as a yearling could be taken as a big positive ... because horses who sell that cheap as yearlings often debut for a tag when they go to a trainer who will place them aggressively.

I was hoping the horse would take money - She didn't so I pitched her.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Saturday

8th (4:42)

6 Furlongs | Open | 2 Year Olds Maiden Special Weight | Purse: $50,000


Post # Horse Jockey Weight Claim Price Equip. Med.
1 Heisman Cohen D 119 FTL
2 Magnet Cove Castellano J J 119 FTL
3 Washington's Rules Desormeaux K J 119
4 Rock Hard Nicky Borel C H 119 FTL
5 Orsonian Gomez G K 119 FTL
6 Brock Albarado R J 119 FTL
7 Call the Ball Lenclud F 114 FTL
8 Fair Whit Maragh R 119 FTL
9 Eltheeb Garcia Alan 119 FTL
10 Derivative Mena M 119 Blk-On L
11 Stay Thirsty Velazquez J R 119 L

1. Any Given Saturday only won his debut by a nose at Turfway Park. If by some miracle this ones as good as him - he'll need to be plenty better on debut to win this. Pass.

2. Not on debut at 6f against these. Pass.

3. Good deal of money to pay for a Roman Ruler out of a Silver Charm dam that's produced nothing. Was a colt when they bought him - is a gelding now. Would have to be pretty live on the board to use.

4. same comment as #2

5. Ralph Nicks - by Officer out of Forty Niner mare - 40K weanling turned 230K yearling. Gomez rides. Lots to like.

6. 200K yearling turned 2.3 million 2yo less than six months later. I wasn't quite as dazzled by its preview as much as some were - but its still a use.

7. No

8. Sold for 37K as a yearling in Jan - and 400K as a yearling in July. I guess when your by a young unproven sire in Jan - and your by the sire who threw both the Derby and Belmont winner come July - and you've filled out well and have Seattle Slew on the bottom that can happen. I'll pass unless this one is rabidly live on the board.

9. Same comment as 2 and 4

10. Coming out of a very strong MSW race, adding blinkers, two works since the race - a lot of reasons to improve but I hate Lukas and will play against this stopper.

11. 160k yl turned 500k 2yo - earned a figure in defeat in debut that's faster than winning par for a 2yo MSW at Saratoga. You're supposed to single these horses every time in races like this... but I don't want a short price on a Bernardini going just 6fs .. especially when the dams only career win came going 12fs in Europe on poly at Lingfield and its a half sibling to two monumental prick teases in Superfly and Andromedia's Hero.

The bet: backwheel the 11 in 2nd place in the exacta ... with the 5 and 6. If either the 3 or 8 happens to be live - include them in the top slot as well.

[ateamstupid]

Solid analysis Doug.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

1. Any Given Saturday only won his debut by a nose at Turfway Park. If by some miracle this ones as good as him - he'll need to be plenty better on debut to win this. Pass.

Good analysis of the race Doug, but this one confuses me a bit. If you are tossing the #1 because of the pedigree (DH / AP Indy mare), wouldn't the Asmussen colt (DH / AP Indy mare) need to be tossed by the same logic?
Or do you believe that the big price tag alone makes that one a must use?

[Sightseek]

I'm never betting a Violette firster again...

In the TDN Berkelhammer and Nicks said they basically last minute decided to buy Valiant Passion and didn't even vet her. They also dangled the "for sale" sign after yesterday.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I'm never betting a Violette firster again...

In the TDN Berkelhammer and Nicks said they basically last minute decided to buy Valiant Passion and didn't even vet her. They also dangled the "for sale" sign after yesterday.

I know, because now Rick is only 22% first time out, with a $2.46ROI the past 3 years.
16 second place finishes, 10 thirds....

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I know, because now Rick is only 22% first time out, with a $2.46ROI the past 3 years.
16 second place finishes, 10 thirds....

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I know, because now Rick is only 22% first time out, with a $2.46ROI the past 3 years.
16 second place finishes, 10 thirds....

..

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I'm never betting a Violette firster again...

One of the most overrated trainers in the game IMO. He's good with horses making their debut and for that reason alone he continues to get expensive horses that run one or two good races and then you need a searchlight to find them.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

One of the most overrated trainers in the game IMO. He's good with horses making their debut and for that reason alone he continues to get expensive horses that run one or two good races and then you need a searchlight to find them.

Its actually only one good race most of the time. He pops with a price on turf every so often, last week with Garcia last year at Toga with a NY bred that I forget the name of.
He bring Not Macho Any More back on Saturday, I think that race sets up nicely for him, but I have the same concerns you have... Bulls and Bears came back at Gulfstream and looked like a POS.
Sightseeks comment was a firster, and I dont see any problem betting him first out. I bet him first out when he beat Stay Thirsty.... You can still get a very fair price if Todd, Steve or anyone else has a big name horse going.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

One of the most overrated trainers in the game IMO. He's good with horses making their debut and for that reason alone he continues to get expensive horses that run one or two good races and then you need a searchlight to find them.

He's screwed me out of nice scores twice in the past three years by not having his big debut winners ready for stakes. Cribnote going to buy a beer in the grandstand in '08 and It's the Big Cat forgetting how to break from the gate this year. Like you said, he can win first time out and that's about it.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Good analysis of the race Doug, but this one confuses me a bit. If you are tossing the #1 because of the pedigree (DH / AP Indy mare), wouldn't the Asmussen colt (DH / AP Indy mare) need to be tossed by the same logic?
Or do you believe that the big price tag alone makes that one a must use?

Brock worked an unblinkered :10 and 3/5 at the Fasig-Tipton February sale and looked very smooth doing it, though I'll defer to Doug regarding the move because he watches way more of them than I do.

As far as Heisman, the dam's first foal broke her maiden by almost five lengths on the inner track and AGS broke his maiden, like Doug said, in a scintillating Polytrack win at Turfway. I wouldn't put it bast Heisman or Brock to be very strong at first asking while ultimately having the most success they can going long.

NT

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Brock worked an unblinkered :10 and 3/5 at the Fasig-Tipton February sale and looked very smooth doing it, though I'll defer to Doug regarding the move because he watches way more of them than I do.

As far as Heisman, the dam's first foal broke her maiden by almost five lengths on the inner track and AGS broke his maiden, like Doug said, in a scintillating Polytrack win at Turfway. I wouldn't put it bast Heisman or Brock to be very strong at first asking while ultimately having the most success they can going long.

NT

Yeah. Even though Brock's under-tack preview didn't exactly strike me as the type of horse I'm crazy about playing in a debut sprint - you have to respect a horse who pinhooks for 11.5 times his value six months later and sells for $2.3 million. He was basically like the first pick of the draft among the people putting up the money.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Even though Brock's under-tack preview didn't exactly strike me as the type of horse I'm crazy about playing in a debut sprint - you have to respect a horse who pinhooks for 11.5 times his value six months later and sells for $2.3 million. He was basically like the first pick of the draft among the people putting up the money.

Or he is the guy who drafted Eli Manning first overall in their fantasy draft because he is a Giants fan.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Rick Violette at Saratoga with 2-year-olds has been an amazing angle going back at least as far as 1998. He goes out and gets the right type of horses for those races and he gets them ready.

Most of the time - those horses won't develop much. But there are exceptions like Dream Rush, High Finance, Read the Footnotes, Summer Doldrums etc.

He's a pretty solid turf trainer when given the kind of horse who isn't a win-early fast 2yo sale type. He developed Man From Wicklow well.