I need to listen to ATR more often

[Rupert Pupkin]

The truth of the matter is, there really aren't any great filly or mare dirt horses out there right now aside from Zenyatta or Rachel. So if Zenyatta did go back east again and beat up on some mediocre fillies, that wouldn't prove any more than what she's been proving out here. People knock her for beating up on the same mediocre fillies over and over again out here, but she won even easier when she went to Oaklawn.

Is there any filly (aside from Rachel) back east on the dirt that would give Zenyatta a tougher time than St Trinians? I highly doubt it. I think Zenyatta would win even easier back east on the dirt against fillies and she's already proven it twice.

Some of you will probably argue that she should be running against the boys. Why should she? She did it once and she's going to do it again in the BC Classic later this year. That will be twice in her career. How many times did Azeri run aganist the boys? How many times did Personal Ensign run against the boys. If a great mare runs against the boys a couple of times in their career, that is quite reasonable.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Some of you will probably argue that she should be running against the boys. Why should she? She did it once and she's going to do it again in the BC Classic later this year. That will be twice in her career. How many times did Azeri run aganist the boys? How many times did Personal Ensign run against the boys. If a great mare runs against the boys a couple of times in their career, that is quite reasonable.

More invocation of ghosts from the past. Why does it matter what Azeri or Personal Ensign did? It's irrelevant to this conversation. What is relevant is that Zenyatta has already proven, ad nauseum, that she's better than the older girls in California and Arkansas. What she's doing right now is accomplishing nothing new for her legacy other than another stupid notch in the winning streak. Don't trot her out to do the same thing against the same lousy horses over and over again and then complain when people bristle at her being called the greatest racemare in 30 years.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

More invocation of ghosts from the past. Why does it matter what Azeri or Personal Ensign did? It's irrelevant to this conversation. What is relevant is that Zenyatta has already proven, ad nauseum, that she's better than the older girls in California and Arkansas. What she's doing right now is accomplishing nothing new for her legacy other than another stupid notch in the winning streak. Don't trot her out to do the same thing against the same lousy horses over and over again and then complain when people bristle at her being called the greatest racemare in 30 years.

Why does it matter what Azeri or Personal Ensign did? Because those are some of the great mares that we are comparing Zenyatta to. Why should there be a double-standard? Why should Zenyatta have to travel all over the country to be considered great when Personal Ensign didn't? Why should Zenyatta have to run 5 times against the boys to be considered great when Azeri was considred great even though she never beat the boys? There is such a double-standard.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Why does it matter what Azeri or Personal Ensign did? Because those are some of the great mares that we are comparing Zenyatta to. Why should there be a double-standard? Why should Zenyatta have to travel all over the country to be considered great when Personal Ensign didn't? Why should Zenyatta have to run 5 times against the boys to be considered great when Azeri was considred great even though she never beat the boys? There is such a double-standard.

Who's we? I'm not comparing Zenyatta to anyone, and I just wrote at length about how doing so is a disservice to the horse. Maybe Personal Ensign and Azeri should've taken on more, maybe they shouldn't have. There are so many different factors that make up each individual horse's career and accomplishments, so I'm simply talking about Zenyatta right now. And what I've said is that she's not doing anything terribly significant for the most part. She's walking in her own footprints rather than making new ones, and that's unfortunate because it does very little to prove this "greatness" of hers that people insist on putting on a scale against the ghosts.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Who's we? I'm not comparing Zenyatta to anyone, and I just wrote at length about how doing so is a disservice to the horse. Maybe Personal Ensign and Azeri should've taken on more, maybe they shouldn't have. There are so many different factors that make up each individual horse's career and accomplishments, so I'm simply talking about Zenyatta right now. And what I've said is that she's not doing anything terribly significant for the most part. She's walking in her own footprints rather than making new ones, and that's unfortunate because it does very little to prove this "greatness" of hers that people insist on putting on a scale against the ghosts.

Alright, let's forget about horses from the past. Zenyatta is running in grade I after grade I. She has now won 8 grade I's in a row. She is obviously based in California. She already flew back to Oaklawn this year. She's going to fly to Churchill for the BC Classic later this year. How many trips back east should she make this year? How many times should she take on the boys?

I could see why people were skeptical last year before the BC Classic. I personally was not skeptical of her ability but I could see why others were. People said that she hadn't beaten the boys. People said that she never travels. People said that she doesn't run on the dirt. Then she beats the boys in the BC Classic and then she travels to Oaklawn and wins on the dirt. And yet it sill isn't enough. It's never enough. Even after she does what her detractors wanted her to do, the detractors are still knocking her. It's absurd.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Alright, let's forget about horses from the past. Zenyatta is running in grade I after grade I. She has now won 8 grade I's in a row. She is obviously based in California. She already flew back to Oaklawn this year. She's going to fly to Churchill for the BC Classic later this year. How many trips back east should she make this year? How many times should she take on the boys?

I could see why people were skeptical last year before the BC Classic. I personally was not skeptical of her ability but I could see why others were. People said that she hadn't beaten the boys. People said that she never travels. People said that she doesn't run on the dirt. Then she beats the boys in the BC Classic and then she travels to Oaklawn and wins on the dirt. And yet it sill isn't enough. It's never enough. Even after she does what her detractors wanted her to do, the detractors are still knocking her. It's absurd.

Oh stop it. That "Grade I" BS is a misleading argument and you know it. She's running in restricted races in her backyard against the same dreck over and over and people like you cry about us not being satisfied with that. She's so goddamn great, she should be able to ship more than twice a year, she should be able to face boys more than once a year. Hell, make her a quarter horse for a race or two, just do something different for once. She's accomplishing nothing but extending a meaningless winning streak and we'll never know how good she truly was because they refuse to break new ground with her.

[randallscott35]

That's why Byk's show is so good...and I don't kiss ass. He takes people to task when it needs to be done. Bravo.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Oh stop it. That "Grade I" BS is a misleading argument and you know it. She's running in restricted races in her backyard against the same dreck over and over and people like you cry about us not being satisfied with that. She's so goddamn great, she should be able to ship more than twice a year, she should be able to face boys more than once a year. Hell, make her a quarter horse for a race or two, just do something different for once. She's accomplishing nothing but extending a meaningless winning streak and we'll never know how good she truly was because they refuse to break new ground with her.

The "Grade I" thing is not misleading. Sure there are times when a certain division is weaker than at other times. But grade I races are the best races that there are. Those are the most prestigious races. You could argue the division is weak this year, but what about last year? What about the year before that? She's won 17 races in a row over the past 3 years. Was the division weak every year?

If you own a filly or mare and they win a grade I, their value as a broodmare skyrockets. Grade I races are the races that everyone wants to win. Nobody is holding back. The best fillies and mares are going to show up in the grade I's. Zenyatta can't run against better horses unless she takes on the boys, which she will do again in the BC Classic later this year.

I can't imagine the way you would have blasted Personal Ensign back in the 1980s for running her final race in the BC Dsitaff instead of the Classic.

[freddymo]

Let me get this right, Davidowitz compared Zenyatta running down St Trinians to Personal Ensign catching Winning Colors? Wow that's special.
I guess he has a huge opinion of St Trinian because Winning Colors was terriffic and she didnt have to be undefeated for people to understand her place in history.

As for PE's staying in NY most of career, who did she duck out west?

[Danzig]

and it's interesting the comparison to personal ensign. she didn't get HOY either....


and i don't recall mr. phipps and shug bitching about it.


you want to be the best? beat the best. run a top campaign. don't stay in your backyard and say you're king of the hill. that's what is required to be an all-timer.

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The truth of the matter is, there really aren't any great filly or mare dirt horses out there right now aside from Zenyatta or Rachel. So if Zenyatta did go back east again and beat up on some mediocre fillies, that wouldn't prove any more than what she's been proving out here. People knock her for beating up on the same mediocre fillies over and over again out here, but she won even easier when she went to Oaklawn.

Is there any filly (aside from Rachel) back east on the dirt that would give Zenyatta a tougher time than St Trinians? I highly doubt it. I think Zenyatta would win even easier back east on the dirt against fillies and she's already proven it twice.

Some of you will probably argue that she should be running against the boys. Why should she? She did it once and she's going to do it again in the BC Classic later this year. That will be twice in her career. How many times did Azeri run aganist the boys? How many times did Personal Ensign run against the boys. If a great mare runs against the boys a couple of times in their career, that is quite reasonable.

you are right. what will they say if she(zenyatta) wins the classic again at churchill? not good enough......thats where those idiots ruined rachel they ran her against the boys over and over. zenyatta showed up ready to race in april...the other horse had to lower to garbage just to get a win and could not even think about racing zenyatta when she was supposed to for 5 million. so whose ducking who here? i 90 % think rachel won't be in the classic this year. as it is right now she has not a prayer of placing in it. she most likely would of lost at belmont saturday if she were entered in the ogden phipps. but , as usual, instead of reality you get the bone heads turning it into an argument about one or the other. they are both good horses, one continues to win and impress....the other has questions about soundness and fitness. who cares about horses in the past and comparing....can i bet crap like that in a race???....i doubt it. why even argue with these clowns. if you can't tell which horse was mismanaged for yourself than you are an idiot and probably lose all the time anyway. theres so many moron comments on here that i read them and gain betting confidence by doing so. waste your time and energy arguing about things that don't mean a thing. if people can't see which horse is better by now they are living in delusion land....let them bet and lose their money like they do most of the time. besides you are arguing over horses that go off 2-5 in every race anyway.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

you are right. what will they say if she(zenyatta) wins the classic again at churchill? not good enough......thats where those idiots ruined rachel they ran her against the boys over and over. zenyatta showed up ready to race in april...the other horse had to lower to garbage just to get a win and could not even think about racing zenyatta when she was supposed to for 5 million. so whose ducking who here? i 90 % think rachel won't be in the classic this year. as it is right now she has not a prayer of placing in it. she most likely would of lost at belmont saturday if she were entered in the ogden phipps. but , as usual, instead of reality you get the bone heads turning it into an argument about one or the other. they are both good horses, one continues to win and impress....the other has questions about soundness and fitness. who cares about horses in the past and comparing....can i bet crap like that in a race???....i doubt it. why even argue with these clowns. if you can't tell which horse was mismanaged for yourself than you are an idiot and probably lose all the time anyway. theres so many moron comments on here that i read them and gain betting confidence by doing so. waste your time and energy arguing about things that don't mean a thing. if people can't see which horse is better by now they are living in delusion land....let them bet and lose their money like they do most of the time. besides you are arguing over horses that go off 2-5 in every race anyway.

how ridiculous. the only time i think rachel was mishandled is when they tried to rush her back off the shelf to suit jess jacksons ego. you can't put up a horse for months, let them get fat and lazy, and then get them revved right up because there's 5 mil on the line.

i still don't understand why the need is there to knock her in an attempt to elevate zenyatta. it's absolutely ridiculous. and i find it funny that you bash others for wasting their time with the argument of who's better, and then you give your opinion of who is obviously better. you're engaging in the very thing you're criticizing others for doing!!