Beyer pens post script after sit-down with Wolfson

[CSC]

Originally Posted by philcski

are you sure they have the same trainer? Tiger's trainer is Keith Kleven, I couldn't find any links that suggested A-Rod has used him.

Apparently, this is the only mention I could find on a google search.

http://theglobalexpress.blogspot.com...-baseball.html

I suspect we may hear more in the future.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by CSC

Apparently, this is the only mention I could find on a google search.

http://theglobalexpress.blogspot.com...-baseball.html

I suspect we may hear more in the future.

Unless there's something he knows that we don't, that guy is categorically incorrect. There is no print record of ARod using Kleven that I could find.

Originally Posted by saratoga guy

I'm not sure that it is...

Maybe a better comparison is to Mike Krzyzewski or Bobby Knight. Both coached at Army early on and both had winning records there.

Mike Krzyzewski was about 55% at Army. Knight was 59%.

Krzyzewski moved on to Duke where he's more like 77%. Knight went to Indiana University where he won around 73%.

They won at Army where they attracted the attention of bigger programs -- with more money and recruiting power. Plus, it's probably safe to assume that, like anything else, the more time you put in the more you learn about the process.

Sure, we shouldn't be naive and not at least question some of the numbers the so-called "super-trainers" put up -- but by the same token, we should also question our suspicions and be fair about painting with a broad brush.

I don't have year-by-year Wolfson stats in front of me in order to address the turnaround asserted by Indomitable -- but certainly Wolfson didn't just appear on the scene a couple of years back to make an impression. He's been around and training at a high-level for quite some time. For instance, Chaposa Springs was a prolific stakes winner (including a couple of G1s) for Wolfson in the mid-90s.

You're kidding me right?!?!?

Winning at 55% or 59% at ARMY is like winning at 90% at Duke!!! It's the most impossible program to coach in Division I Basketball!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

You're kidding me right?!?!?

Winning at 55% or 59% at ARMY is like winning at 90% at Duke!!! It's the most impossible program to coach in Division I Basketball!

That was a pretty amusing comparison he made.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

That was a pretty amusing comparison he made.

Considering Army has an average record over the past 10 years of 6-20 having a winning percentage of 55% would be like getting Zippy Chippy to win the Kentucky Derby.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by philcski

Unless there's something he knows that we don't, that guy is categorically incorrect. There is no print record of ARod using Kleven that I could find.

Perhaps, I should have mentioned that I first heard of this on a national radio show. I highly doubt they would have blurted out something that could be so damaging without a little fact checking first. Look I am a big fan of Tiger's and I dearly hope it isn't true. However if it was proven true one day, I honestly wouldn't be surprised when you look at the way he is able to train, he's the hardest worker, most talented, smartest golfer I have seen. That coupled with the changes in his physique and you wonder? I would also like to stress the hardest worker part, you sound like a golfer Phil, so you know there are alot of aches and pains associated with golf, you also know the baseball swing and the golfswing are very identical motions. There are some simularities here, anyone who says hitting the ball farther without as much effort doesn't improve you as a golfer are kidding themselves.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by CSC

Perhaps, I should have mentioned that I first heard of this on a national radio show. I highly doubt they would have blurted out something that could be so damaging without a little fact checking first. Look I am a big fan of Tiger's and I dearly hope it isn't true. However if it was proven true one day, I honestly wouldn't be surprised when you look at the way he is able to train, he's the hardest worker, most talented, smartest golfer I have seen. That coupled with the changes in his physique and you wonder? I would also like to stress the hardest worker part, you sound like a golfer Phil, so you know there are alot of aches and pains associated with golf, you also know the baseball swing and the golfswing are very identical motions. There are some simularities here, anyone who says hitting the ball farther without as much effort doesn't improve you as a golfer are kidding themselves.

Po-lease.

The last time I swung a baseball bat, I was hitting a baseball a few feet above the ground, and it was moving. The last time I swung a golf club, the ball was on the ground, and it was still. The only aches and pains I've had with golf is not being able to get-and-down everytime I find a trap.

Tiger's swing featured a locking motion on his left knee, which deteriorated over time and ultimately led to it basically crumbling. Implying that Tiger Woods took steroids is absolutely ridiculous, and there is simply no basis.

The PGA Tour drug tests too. Their version of "cheating" was implied when certain players clubs were believed to be playing with "super clubs" and so they began testing. Tiger's caddie was one of the first guys to bring in the clubs for testing.

It's a shame our society is so jaded that when someone comes along, someone who is smart, devoted and good at what they do, we immediately cry fowl.

Okay, sorry to bring this thread farther off topic.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Po-lease.

The last time I swung a baseball bat, I was hitting a baseball a few feet above the ground, and it was moving. The last time I swung a golf club, the ball was on the ground, and it was still. The only aches and pains I've had with golf is not being able to get-and-down everytime I find a trap.

Tiger's swing featured a locking motion on his left knee, which deteriorated over time and ultimately led to it basically crumbling. Implying that Tiger Woods took steroids is absolutely ridiculous, and there is simply no basis.

The PGA Tour drug tests too. Their version of "cheating" was implied when certain players clubs were believed to be playing with "super clubs" and so they began testing. Tiger's caddie was one of the first guys to bring in the clubs for testing.

It's a shame our society is so jaded that when someone comes along, someone who is smart, devoted and good at what they do, we immediately cry fowl.



Okay, sorry to bring this thread farther off topic.

I can tell by the way you call races that you're on something...Nobody does that "clean"..

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by GBBob

I can tell by the way you call races that you're on something...Nobody does that "clean"..

I take lots of drugs:

* Steroids to make it up the two flights of stairs from the fourth to the sixth floor (LAD doesn't have an elevator all the way to the top)

* I take an eye enhancer to help glow the colors the jockey silks during the race.

* I also take a drug which enables my voice to sound a few notches deeper. Otherwise, I sound like the guy on the Seinfeld episode who sounds like a girl (the high talker).

* I take an anti-fatigue drug to help deter heavy breathing from getting up out of my desk chair, and going to the stand, between every race.

There's nothing in society today that anyone can do well while being "clean" ... it's simply impossible!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I take lots of drugs:

* Steroids to make it up the two flights of stairs from the fourth to the sixth floor (LAD doesn't have an elevator all the way to the top)

* I take an eye enhancer to help glow the colors the jockey silks during the race.

* I also take a drug which enables my voice to sound a few notches deeper. Otherwise, I sound like the guy on the Seinfeld episode who sounds like a girl (the high talker).

* I take an anti-fatigue drug to help deter heavy breathing from getting up out of my desk chair, and going to the stand, between every race.

There's nothing in society today that anyone can do well while being "clean" ... it's simply impossible!

As long as you arent a 'close' talker

[Fearless Leader]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I take lots of drugs:

* Steroids to make it up the two flights of stairs from the fourth to the sixth floor (LAD doesn't have an elevator all the way to the top)

* I take an eye enhancer to help glow the colors the jockey silks during the race.

* I also take a drug which enables my voice to sound a few notches deeper. Otherwise, I sound like the guy on the Seinfeld episode who sounds like a girl (the high talker).

* I take an anti-fatigue drug to help deter heavy breathing from getting up out of my desk chair, and going to the stand, between every race.

There's nothing in society today that anyone can do well while being "clean" ... it's simply impossible!

I always knew you were a juicer. No one can call races like that on crawfish and water alone.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Po-lease.

The last time I swung a baseball bat, I was hitting a baseball a few feet above the ground, and it was moving. The last time I swung a golf club, the ball was on the ground, and it was still. The only aches and pains I've had with golf is not being able to get-and-down everytime I find a trap.

Tiger's swing featured a locking motion on his left knee, which deteriorated over time and ultimately led to it basically crumbling. Implying that Tiger Woods took steroids is absolutely ridiculous, and there is simply no basis.

The PGA Tour drug tests too. Their version of "cheating" was implied when certain players clubs were believed to be playing with "super clubs" and so they began testing. Tiger's caddie was one of the first guys to bring in the clubs for testing.

It's a shame our society is so jaded that when someone comes along, someone who is smart, devoted and good at what they do, we immediately cry fowl.

Okay, sorry to bring this thread farther off topic.

Are the PGA testing Travis? I don't remember them going towards testing. I do remember Tiger in 2005 coming out and saying he was pro drug testing if the PGA was to adopt it.

What we do know is Gary Player was chastised by some for suggesting he knew that atleast 10% of players were using steroids, I really don't know why it would be such a big surprise if golf had similar problems to other sports, I am just being realistic, that it is somewhat unrealistic(no intention to rhyme here) that only one sport would remain prestine when most others have already been tainted.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Are the PGA testing Travis? I don't remember them going towards testing. I do remember Tiger in 2005 coming out and saying he was pro drug testing if the PGA was to adopt it.

What we do know is Gary Player was chastised by some for suggesting he knew that atleast 10% of players were using steroids, I really don't know why it would be such a big surprise if golf had similar problems to other sports, I am just being realistic, that it is somewhat unrealistic(no intention to rhyme here) that only one sport would remain prestine when most others have already been tainted.

There is less than zero chance that the PGA would call a positive test on Woods regardless of what they found in his tests. I mean does anyone really think they wouldnt squash a bad test for Tiger?

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is less than zero chance that the PGA would call a positive test on Woods regardless of what they found in his tests. I mean does anyone really think they wouldnt squash a bad test for Tiger?

they would do that Chuck , but ,it would leak out by someone if he ever tested positive and he would retire "to spend time with the family"

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is less than zero chance that the PGA would call a positive test on Woods regardless of what they found in his tests. I mean does anyone really think they wouldnt squash a bad test for Tiger?

Probably not, U.S track covered up positive tests.
Bud Selig had his head buried in sand, there is no doubt he knew what was going on in baseball and allowed it to carry on until token testing was mandated. I don't know if Tiger is using anything to enhance his game, I really hope he is the exception, but when one examines other superstars in other sports, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong, Roger Clemons just to name 3 off the top of my head, it's hard not to atleast wonder. Is he?

[GPK]

Originally Posted by CSC

Are the PGA testing Travis? I don't remember them going towards testing. I do remember Tiger in 2005 coming out and saying he was pro drug testing if the PGA was to adopt it.

What we do know is Gary Player was chastised by some for suggesting he knew that atleast 10% of players were using steroids, I really don't know why it would be such a big surprise if golf had similar problems to other sports, I am just being realistic, that it is somewhat unrealistic(no intention to rhyme here) that only one sport would remain prestine when most others have already been tainted.

The PGA Tour is testing, and as a matter of fact, Tiger was even tested during his time off after his surgery this past year.

In the other post, where you talked about being able to hit the ball further without more effort ,making you a better golfer...well, no offense, but thats just insane.

[GPK]

Top 5 players in driving distance stats so far in 2009

1. Bubba Watson
2. Gary Woodland
3. Scott Piercy
4. Robert Garrigus
5. Chris Couch

those same guys and their rank on the money list

Bubba - 36
Woodland - 158
Piercy - 33
Garrigus - 82
Couch - 187

Hitting it long, with or without less effort, doesn't do anything to make anyone a better player. If you can't get the ball up and down from inside 120 yards in 2 shots a great majority of the time, you ain't sh*t on the PGA Tour.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by GPK

The PGA Tour is testing, and as a matter of fact, Tiger was even tested during his time off after his surgery this past year.

In the other post, where you talked about being able to hit the ball further without more effort ,making you a better golfer...well, no offense, but thats just insane.

I'll use this as an example, if a player is ranked 100 - 200 in the world rankings and is looking for an edge in breaking into the top 50 in rankings, if someone came up to them and said I can guarantee you another 15-20 yds in distance, that isn't going to improve your game? 15-20 yds on approach shots to the green can mean the difference from using a wedge to using an iron. You may disagree but without getting into a golf discussion this evening, I say distance does matter, is it the only variable in golf, obcourse not but it does come in play in golf. Just as putting, course Mgt..ect...

[saratoga guy]

Originally Posted by philcski

You're kidding me right?!?!?

Winning at 55% or 59% at ARMY is like winning at 90% at Duke!!! It's the most impossible program to coach in Division I Basketball!

Uh, yeah, that's kinda the point!

These guys didn't magically become "super-coaches" by "juicing" their players -- they were good coaches before but their circumstances changed. They moved on to schools with money and recruiting power.

(But, if you prefer -- you can use Rick Pitino at Boston University, a school that has won their conference a number of times. Pitino was 64% at BU, and a couple of years later moved to Kentucky where he won 81%)

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by saratoga guy

Uh, yeah, that's kinda the point!

These guys didn't magically become "super-coaches" by "juicing" their players -- they were good coaches before but their circumstances changed. They moved on to schools with money and recruiting power.

(But, if you prefer -- you can use Rick Pitino at Boston University, a school that has won their conference a number of times. Pitino was 64% at BU, and a couple of years later moved to Kentucky where he won 81%)

You're mixing your analogies. Wolfson's ROI has also gone through the roof so you can't just say it was better stock. The better analogy would be a coach that is winning against the spread 49% of the time for a 10 year period suddenly goes on a 3 year run where he wins against the spread 59% of the time every year. Even though everyone knows his team keeps beating the spread and the spread adjusts he somehow maintains his percentage. Highly unlikely that would ever happen.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by saratoga guy

Uh, yeah, that's kinda the point!

These guys didn't magically become "super-coaches" by "juicing" their players -- they were good coaches before but their circumstances changed. They moved on to schools with money and recruiting power.

(But, if you prefer -- you can use Rick Pitino at Boston University, a school that has won their conference a number of times. Pitino was 64% at BU, and a couple of years later moved to Kentucky where he won 81%)

Your analogy would be correct if they got a bunch of junior college transfers and slow white guys to win. The troubling thing about Wolfson is the unimaginable improvement of horses with consistent records far below what he gets them to run. The stuff that he says he does to his horses is no different than most good trainers. Epsom salts, magnetic blankets, changing shoes, etc. Oscar used to say it was the shoes too.

Speaking of shoes either Beyer made a typo or Wolfson was misquoted because I have never heard of a racehorse wearing a size 3 shoe. It is impossible for a horse to go from size 3 to size 6, impossible.