Duke/Davidson

[philcski]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Thanks for telling me to go to an NBA game. I've never been.

Again, you've missed my point. I don't care if NBA guys are assholes, my problem is that the NBA is so dry. It largely doesn't matter to these players whether they win or lose. That's gay, no matter how good the players are.

I cover high school basketball in the city and I enjoy the hell out of it, moreso than NBA games. Why? Because these kids live and die for basketball. Many of them are trying to play their way into a scholarship, others are just doing it because they love it. It's basketball at its purest, if not at its cleanest. There aren't seven zillion TV timeouts, halftime show inanity, or players that are treated like Gods. It's more than just some **** they have to do in order to get paid eight figures a year and secure endorsement deals.

College hoops is similar. Most kids aren't going to the NBA, and every season, thousands of players take their last steps on a basketball court in front of a crowd. Therefore, they're going to want to win more than NBA players, to keep their careers going. So they bust their asses and give us great games against other kids not wanting their careers to end. That's fake drama? What the hell would be real drama then?

Yeah that pretty much sums it up for me.

I never get the sense that NBA players care whether they win or lose. Getting paid is really all that matters. There are a smattering who still play with the passion that would indicate the final tally is wins and losses rather than dollar signs (Dwayne Wade, KG come to mind) but for ever DW there is two Stephon Marburys. I don't doubt the fact that these guys are superior athletes, and that's about the only reason to watch IMO.

College hoops (and Chuck I'm surprised you don't feel the same way, being an alumni of an elite basketball school) inspires passion and pride in people and the players. You rarely see kids "take a night off", let alone a possession. The NCAA Tournament is the best team sporting event in the world- the NBA playoffs can't touch that, ever. I don't care if I cheer for a jersey in college hoops because it's MY jersey.

Also, they unceremoniously ripped the NBA teams out of my hometowns because "the TV market wasn't big enough" and moved them to San Diego and Cincy, I'll never forgive them for that, even if the first one was well before my lifetime.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

Yeah that pretty much sums it up for me.

I never get the sense that NBA players care whether they win or lose. Getting paid is really all that matters. There are a smattering who still play with the passion that would indicate the final tally is wins and losses rather than dollar signs (Dwayne Wade, KG come to mind) but for ever DW there is two Stephon Marburys. I don't doubt the fact that these guys are superior athletes, and that's about the only reason to watch IMO.

College hoops (and Chuck I'm surprised you don't feel the same way, being an alumni of an elite basketball school) inspires passion and pride in people and the players. You rarely see kids "take a night off", let alone a possession. The NCAA Tournament is the best team sporting event in the world- the NBA playoffs can't touch that, ever. I don't care if I cheer for a jersey in college hoops because it's MY jersey.

Also, they unceremoniously ripped the NBA teams out of my hometowns because "the TV market wasn't big enough" and moved them to San Diego and Cincy, I'll never forgive them for that, even if the first one was well before my lifetime.

I watch more NBA games than is probably healthy and rarely get the sense that players arent playing hard. Most dont engage in fake hustle but the on the court game is far superior to college. To me college basketball is now like a watered down grade 1, maybe the race will be close but that doesnt mean it was a great race. The ironic part about the whole issue is that college coaches have less control than ever over thier good players which has led to the game being played at a lower level. Maybe you guys are too young to see it but college basketball aint what it was. The tourney is great but the rest of the season is pretty much the same crap over and over.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I watch more NBA games than is probably healthy and rarely get the sense that players arent playing hard. Most dont engage in fake hustle but the on the court game is far superior to college. To me college basketball is now like a watered down grade 1, maybe the race will be close but that doesnt mean it was a great race. The ironic part about the whole issue is that college coaches have less control than ever over thier good players which has led to the game being played at a lower level. Maybe you guys are too young to see it but college basketball aint what it was. The tourney is great but the rest of the season is pretty much the same crap over and over.

I think this is very true. The myth that the NBA guys aren't playing hard is way off. People think a guy like Chris Bosh is not playing hard or Michael Beasley is not playing hard because of their facial expressions or the smoothness they play with. Let me assure you that you can't go for 22 and 10 a night in the NBA if you aren't playing hard. It's impossible. They are playing as hard as the college guys, if not harder. The main reason is because they still have pride. Nobody wants to get embarrassed out there on national tv. The thing is these guys are SO GOOD that they sometimes make the difficult look easy. But they are playing hard.

The analogy to a watered down grade one race is a good one. I have that argument all the time. We might see some close, exciting games during the year. A game like UNC vs. Duke may include five or more future NBA players and be high in quality. But it's NOTHING like an NBA game. The quality of play in the NBA is light years beyond anything you will ever see in a college game. Dick Vitale did an NBA game the other night and he couldn't be more clear in his assessment that the NBA game is much better quality wise.

You are also correct when it comes to talking about the influence coaches have. There are some exceptions, guys like Coach K, Roy Williams, Calhoun, Izzo, and a few others. But most of these guys have little influence when they have a star player. They know for the most part that the star will be one and done and if there's any chance of trying to get them back for a second or third year, they coddle to them like crazy. O.J. Mayo had free reign at USC. Kevin Durant didn't even attend school in the second semester at Texas. Don't believe all that rah rah, playing for my school stuff. It's probably true at Siena or Vermont or Penn...but it's not true at the big time schools. Those guy are playing mostly to showcase their games for the NBA or Europe.

[ateamstupid]

Um, there are usually what, five or six one-and-done players in college basketball every year? Yet at the "big time schools," it's totally about showcasing for the league? Nice generalization genius.

And if you watched Celtics/LeBron last night, you'd know why the NBA sucks. The focus isn't the game, and it never will be. Instead it's about promoting the star and trying to justify obnoxious ad campaigns. Dan Shulman thinks "we are all witnesses." Thanks Dan, good to know. Can I have it my way at Burger King too?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Um, there are usually what, five or six one-and-done players in college basketball every year? Yet at the "big time schools," it's totally about showcasing for the league? Nice generalization genius.

And if you watched Celtics/LeBron last night, you'd know why the NBA sucks. The focus isn't the game, and it never will be. Instead it's about promoting the star and trying to justify obnoxious ad campaigns. Dan Shulman thinks "we are all witnesses." Thanks Dan, good to know. Can I have it my way at Burger King too?

Well, I'm not a genius but thank you for thinking that I am. Now, there may be 5-6 one and done guys but there are also plenty of guys that are sophomores, juniors, and seniors that also trying to play for the NBA. Guys like Tyler Hansborough, Stephen Curry, Blake Griffin, etc., guys that are not one and done but will be obvious NBA players. There are several guys at schools like Duke, UNC, and UConn that aren't one and done that will be in the NBA and they are trying to hone the games and work on the things that NBA scouts tell them they need to work on. Curry is a prime example. Everyone knows he can shoot the ball better than most NBA players. But at his size, he's likely going to have to be a point guard in the league. So that's why he's playing that position in this year, to get more experience at it and show the pros that he can do it. And it's important to note on this subject that just because all of the players at the big time schools don't go to the NBA doesn't mean that they don't have the mentality that says they think they belong there. I'd bet that 90%+ of the guys that sign on at top 10-20 schools feel like they are going to be in the NBA after college. I also said that not only are they showcasing their skills for the NBA but for Europe too. There is very good money to be made playing in Europe and Russia.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Curry is a prime example. Everyone knows he can shoot the ball better than most NBA players. But at his size, he's likely going to have to be a point guard in the league. So that's why he's playing that position in this year, to get more experience at it and show the pros that he can do it. And it's important to note on this subject that just because all of the players at the big time schools don't go to the NBA doesn't mean that they don't have the mentality that says they think they belong there. I also said that not only are they showcasing their skills for the NBA but for Europe too. There is very good money to be made playing in Europe and Russia.

No, he's playing the point because Jason Richards graduated.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'd bet that 90%+ of the guys that sign on at top 10-20 schools feel like they are going to be in the NBA after college.

This is completely false of course.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

No, he's playing the point because Jason Richards graduated.



This is completely false of course.

That is NOT why he's playing the point. It's part of the reason but the biggest one is because of what I said. I'm sure of it.

And as for the statement about the guys believing they will be pros, I suggest that you go to one of the camps for high school seniors to be. Go to one where they invite the top 150 juniors and poll them and see how many think they will be in the NBA. If you don't come up with 135 or more, I'd eat my hat. At that age, after being "stars" all through school, they have unrealistic evaluations of their own talents. Trust me, I know this from personal experience.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

No, he's playing the point because Jason Richards graduated.



This is completely false of course.

Joe they ALL think they will make it. Send a PM to Storm Cadet and ask him what he see and hears FIRST HAND. And if you see a NBA player on St' Johns roster let me know.

As for the quality of announcers i give you Billy Packer and Dick Vitale...

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think this is very true. The myth that the NBA guys aren't playing hard is way off. People think a guy like Chris Bosh is not playing hard or Michael Beasley is not playing hard because of their facial expressions or the smoothness they play with. Let me assure you that you can't go for 22 and 10 a night in the NBA if you aren't playing hard. It's impossible. They are playing as hard as the college guys, if not harder. The main reason is because they still have pride. Nobody wants to get embarrassed out there on national tv. The thing is these guys are SO GOOD that they sometimes make the difficult look easy. But they are playing hard.

The analogy to a watered down grade one race is a good one. I have that argument all the time. We might see some close, exciting games during the year. A game like UNC vs. Duke may include five or more future NBA players and be high in quality. But it's NOTHING like an NBA game. The quality of play in the NBA is light years beyond anything you will ever see in a college game. Dick Vitale did an NBA game the other night and he couldn't be more clear in his assessment that the NBA game is much better quality wise.

You are also correct when it comes to talking about the influence coaches have. There are some exceptions, guys like Coach K, Roy Williams, Calhoun, Izzo, and a few others. But most of these guys have little influence when they have a star player. They know for the most part that the star will be one and done and if there's any chance of trying to get them back for a second or third year, they coddle to them like crazy. O.J. Mayo had free reign at USC. Kevin Durant didn't even attend school in the second semester at Texas. Don't believe all that rah rah, playing for my school stuff. It's probably true at Siena or Vermont or Penn...but it's not true at the big time schools. Those guy are playing mostly to showcase their games for the NBA or Europe.

I agree with much of what you say here. A couple of interesting things. You assure me that a guy that puts up 22 and 10 a night is playing hard. I Agree. There is only ONE guy in the NBA doing that though and thats Al Jefferson and I havent heard anyone ever accuse that guy of not playing hard.

You can't look at just stats to determine effort. Effort is more intangible. Effort is going to show more on the defensive end. Thats still hard to quantify though because points allowed on defense is more a reflection of tempo and style of play than effort.

Pros often do give a lot of effort but the other side of your argument would be that the pros dont have to put out as much effort to produce a decent game. Certainly not saying that is always the case but it is a valid argument.

Pro crowds are nowhere near as crazy and as influential as college crowds. Like it or not, crowd intensity can have a major impact on players. That does effect effort especially on the defensive end.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I agree with much of what you say here. A couple of interesting things. You assure me that a guy that puts up 22 and 10 a night is playing hard. I Agree. There is only ONE guy in the NBA doing that though and thats Al Jefferson and I havent heard anyone ever accuse that guy of not playing hard.

You can't look at just stats to determine effort. Effort is more intangible. Effort is going to show more on the defensive end. Thats still hard to quantify though because points allowed on defense is more a reflection of tempo and style of play than effort.

Pros often do give a lot of effort but the other side of your argument would be that the pros dont have to put out as much effort to produce a decent game. Certainly not saying that is always the case but it is a valid argument.

Pro crowds are nowhere near as crazy and as influential as college crowds. Like it or not, crowd intensity can have a major impact on players. That does effect effort especially on the defensive end.

I didn't mean exactly 22 and 10. I was just saying a big time producer. It could be 25-8 or 19-12. Or even 27-7-7.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I didn't mean exactly 22 and 10. I was just saying a big time producer. It could be 25-8 or 19-12. Or even 27-7-7.

Vince Carter plays hard every night?

I know what you are saying.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by philcski

Yeah that pretty much sums it up for me.

I never get the sense that NBA players care whether they win or lose. Getting paid is really all that matters. There are a smattering who still play with the passion that would indicate the final tally is wins and losses rather than dollar signs (Dwayne Wade, KG come to mind) but for ever DW there is two Stephon Marburys. I don't doubt the fact that these guys are superior athletes, and that's about the only reason to watch IMO.

College hoops (and Chuck I'm surprised you don't feel the same way, being an alumni of an elite basketball school) inspires passion and pride in people and the players. You rarely see kids "take a night off", let alone a possession. The NCAA Tournament is the best team sporting event in the world- the NBA playoffs can't touch that, ever. I don't care if I cheer for a jersey in college hoops because it's MY jersey.

Also, they unceremoniously ripped the NBA teams out of my hometowns because "the TV market wasn't big enough" and moved them to San Diego and Cincy, I'll never forgive them for that, even if the first one was well before my lifetime.

unless you root for Arizona.... I'm really dont care for college or pro basketball... but its the best sport to play!!!

I started going to the U of A in '01. The year that Salim Stoudamire hit that shot against OK State in the Sweet 16... (then they blew like a 14 pt lead to Illinois w/ like 3 mins left in the Elite 8)... was the only year I was proud of the Arizona bball squad.

They always played the worst defense. It was all about "me me me" it seemed like... and they take nights off whenever they feel like it.

Lute Olson was a poor college BBall coach in this decade.... granted he had off court issues this whole decade also.

I'm MUCH more of an Arizona football fan than basketball. And our football team SUCKED the whole decade until 2008.