2021 Hall of Fame Eligible Nominees

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

But an under .500 record and only three grade one wins puts you in the hall of very good, not the hall of fame for me.

If you gauge top sprinters by the number of Grade 1s they win then you are already on faulty ground.

Even in this age of a billion available stakes races in service of the all might BC, what is there, like 4 or 5 open Grade 1 sprints on the calendar nationwide?

Want to hazard a guess how many Grade 1s Safely Kept, Housebuster, and Groovy won in their careers?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

If you gauge top sprinters by the number of Grade 1s they win then you are already on faulty ground.

Even in this age of a billion available stakes races in service of the all might BC, what is there, like 4 or 5 open Grade 1 sprints on the calendar nationwide?

Want to hazard a guess how many Grade 1s Safely Kept, Housebuster, and Groovy won in their careers?

I knew Housebuster was 3 because I looked this morning. Shocked to see Groovy only won one. Plus he had a sub .500 record.

Imagine that

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

If you gauge top sprinters by the number of Grade 1s they win then you are already on faulty ground.

Even in this age of a billion available stakes races in service of the all might BC, what is there, like 4 or 5 open Grade 1 sprints on the calendar nationwide?

Want to hazard a guess how many Grade 1s Safely Kept, Housebuster, and Groovy won in their careers?

Do you think Gulch should be in ? What a career he had - toughest horse I’ve ever seen.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Betsy

Do you think Gulch should be in ? What a career he had - toughest horse I’ve ever seen.

...and he sired a Kentucky Derby winner and was the grandsire of a dual classic winning HOY.

Top class at 2, 3, and 4 from one of the best crops ever. Probably the most versatile of that group.

I need to find a replay of the 1987 Whitney; judging by the running line, Jose Santos must have botched that ride.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

...and he sired a Kentucky Derby winner and was the grandsire of a dual classic winning HOY.

Top class at 2, 3, and 4 from one of the best crops ever. Probably the most versatile of that group.

I need to find a replay of the 1987 Whitney; judging by the running line, Jose Santos must have botched that ride.

That crop was incredible. He was the first horse I followed from the beginning to the end of his career.

I hesitate to criticize Jolley and Brant, but they could have done what Lukas did and kept Gulch primarily sprinting. He would have amassed many more wins, though maybe not as much respect because he ran so well almost every time, even at routes. The funny thing is, when he won the Belmont Futurity, he wasn’t overly impressive - he barely held on over Demon’s Begone. The thought was that he was not going to get better as he matured, that he’d already peaked. He didn’t - Jolley did do a great job with him.

Here’s the replay..it still stings, lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLfPL_GwlxU

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

...and he sired a Kentucky Derby winner and was the grandsire of a dual classic winning HOY.

Top class at 2, 3, and 4 from one of the best crops ever. Probably the most versatile of that group.

I need to find a replay of the 1987 Whitney; judging by the running line, Jose Santos must have botched that ride.

Botched my ass. Defeat was inevitable. It was Java Gold!!

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

If you gauge top sprinters by the number of Grade 1s they win then you are already on faulty ground.

Even in this age of a billion available stakes races in service of the all might BC, what is there, like 4 or 5 open Grade 1 sprints on the calendar nationwide?

Want to hazard a guess how many Grade 1s Safely Kept, Housebuster, and Groovy won in their careers?

Good point. But didn't he race into his 7yo season?
Safely Kept won 24 of 31. That's deceiving somewhat because most of that wasn't in open competition. If she was facing open competition the majority of the time, he record wouldn't be as sparkling.

Housebuster won 15 of 22 and was voted champion in two seasons, not one.

Groovy, as brilliant as he was, was also under .500 and lost his two biggest tests.

When I think of these horses, I think that Kona Gold fits in with them so if they are in, I can see him in too. My position would be more likely that none of them go in. Maybe Housebuster cause he was a champion in two seasons, not one.

[blackthroatedwind]

Simply saying Groovy didn't win half of his starts, and not knowing why, is ( frankly ) embarrassing, and disqualifies you from even discussing his merits.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Simply saying Groovy didn't win half of his starts, and not knowing why, is ( frankly ) embarrassing, and disqualifies you from even discussing his merits.

Assuming that I don't know why is your right. Doesn't change the fact though. And his two biggest opportunities on the national stage, he was beaten in both of them. I bet Groovy in 1986 because it was my first year in racing and I fell to all the hype. Once I learned the difference in 1987 between NY speed and California speed and knew that if he faced the kind of pace pressure he would in California rather than what he faced in NY, I didn't make the same mistake twice. And before you mention it, yes, I know he won the Ancient Title prior to the BC beating the great Rosies KT and Sun Master, who he drilled several more times in NY.

If Serena Williams won every preliminary match leading to the majors, great. But the majors are the biggest stages and she can't lose each time she gets on the biggest stage and just be forgiven because of what she did on the smaller ones.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

But the majors are the biggest stages and she can't lose each time she gets on the biggest stage and just be forgiven because of what she did on the smaller ones.

Well, it worked out pretty well for Housebuster. He won 2 Eclipse awards and made the HOF despite losing most of his major tests each season. Even got lit up by a Derby winner in a sprint.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Well, it worked out pretty well for Housebuster. He won 2 Eclipse awards and made the HOF despite losing most of his major tests each season. Even got lit up by a Derby winner in a sprint.

Again, I'm not saying that Kona Gold is not deserving based on who is already in there. So are Safely Kept, Housebuster, and Groovy. Since they are in, Kona Gold deserves to be in. Blind Luck deserves it too. I'm saying that if I had my perfect world and could strip it down and start over, none of them would be in. My position on any hall of fame is if you have to "make a case" for someone, it's an automatic no. Like, when you say Michael Jordan, you don't have to go look at his resume and make a case for him. That's an automatic, 100% yes. Same with Tom Brady. Same with Secretariat and Spectacular Bid. I think American Pharoah fits in. I don't need to look at his resume to be reminded how great he was cause I won't forget what I saw. I want the hall to be reserved for the elite of the elite.

[Dahoss]

Make it stop please. The ONE time American Pharaoh got tested he got run down by Keen Ice.

You can’t compare other sports to racing when it comes to the HOF. They are not relatable at all.

Not to be rude, but who cares what your HOF would look like? That’s not the discussion. The discussion s whether or not Kona Gold or Blind Luck should be in the current HOF.

[moses]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Again, I'm not saying that Kona Gold is not deserving based on who is already in there. So are Safely Kept, Housebuster, and Groovy. Since they are in, Kona Gold deserves to be in. Blind Luck deserves it too. I'm saying that if I had my perfect world and could strip it down and start over, none of them would be in. My position on any hall of fame is if you have to "make a case" for someone, it's an automatic no. Like, when you say Michael Jordan, you don't have to go look at his resume and make a case for him. That's an automatic, 100% yes. Same with Tom Brady. Same with Secretariat and Spectacular Bid. I think American Pharoah fits in. I don't need to look at his resume to be reminded how great he was cause I won't forget what I saw. I want the hall to be reserved for the elite of the elite.

I don’t think there is a single HOF that operate in that manner. To your point about Serena Williams, Andy Roddick has only one grand slam title but he was inducted into the tennis HOF a few years ago. When his time comes, I’m sure a guy like Andy Murray will be inducted as well. He has 3 grand slam titles but he also played during the same era as Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic. No one will hold that against him.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Assuming that I don't know why is your right. Doesn't change the fact though. And his two biggest opportunities on the national stage, he was beaten in both of them. I bet Groovy in 1986 because it was my first year in racing and I fell to all the hype. Once I learned the difference in 1987 between NY speed and California speed and knew that if he faced the kind of pace pressure he would in California rather than what he faced in NY, I didn't make the same mistake twice. And before you mention it, yes, I know he won the Ancient Title prior to the BC beating the great Rosies KT and Sun Master, who he drilled several more times in NY.

If Serena Williams won every preliminary match leading to the majors, great. But the majors are the biggest stages and she can't lose each time she gets on the biggest stage and just be forgiven because of what she did on the smaller ones.

This is particularly funny given he drilled Phone Trick....a CA speed horse. He also beat the great Turkoman, as a 3YO, at 7F. Your revisionist, result oriented, history is sorely lacking.

Since you know why his overall record is a poor way to evaluate him, feel free to explain why. Otherwise, I don't think you know.