Another gop govt shutdown?!

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Danzig

[/color]

as for your last paragraph.
i won't try to convince even one person not to abort. it's their life, their decision. not mine. they may have other kids, aren't ready, whatever.
it's like the fable of gawain and ragnelle. all women want is sovereignty over their own body. women shouldn't have to be held victim to biology.
and i don't believe that if a mistake is made and bc fails, that a mistake must be compounded, and a woman made to alter the rest of her entire life because sperm met egg.

Not going to change your mind Danzig, and the reverse is certainly true.

But to clarify:

" do you think a woman should go to jail for having a legal abortion?"
No - the point is that abortion should not be legal in the first place since it is ending a human life.

[OldDog]

Huh.

Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 23 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*).

more details here
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/...tate-laws.aspx

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by OldDog

Huh.



more details here
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/...tate-laws.aspx

Yep, they exist. Note they don't apply to abortion. Those charges typically get pinned onto a case where the woman wished to keep her pregnancy.
There was a guy here a couple years ago who intentionally rammed his car into his estranged wife's car. Killed the passenger who was pregnant. So, two murder charges filed by the state.
Go figure tho.....people leave their kids in hot cars and don't get charged....
Amazing how much more people sorry about those not born than those who are here already.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by Danzig

Yep, they exist. Note they don't apply to abortion. Those charges typically get pinned onto a case where the woman wished to keep her pregnancy.
There was a guy here a couple years ago who intentionally rammed his car into his estranged wife's car. Killed the passenger who was pregnant. So, two murder charges filed by the state.
Go figure tho.....people leave their kids in hot cars and don't get charged....
Amazing how much more people sorry about those not born than those who are here already.

So, when woman wants to keep blob of cells, taking it is murder.

But, when woman wants to discard blob of cells, it's her right.

Huh.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by OldDog

So, when woman wants to keep blob of cells, taking it is murder.

But, when woman wants to discard blob of cells, it's her right.

Huh.

yeah, go figure a prosecuting attorney wanting to put on as many charges as possible...and add to a criminals sentence. what are they thinking?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn...f_Violence_Act

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Danzig

Yep, they exist. Note they don't apply to abortion. Those charges typically get pinned onto a case where the woman wished to keep her pregnancy.
There was a guy here a couple years ago who intentionally rammed his car into his estranged wife's car. Killed the passenger who was pregnant. So, two murder charges filed by the state.
Go figure tho.....people leave their kids in hot cars and don't get charged....
Amazing how much more people sorry about those not born than those who are here already.

Do you think that makes any sense?

By "that" I mean the idea that the status of the baby ONLY depends on whether the mother wanted it or not?

Two mothers, one named Smith, one named Jones, suffer the same crime and cease to be pregnant at the same point in gestation of the baby. Smith wanted her baby and so charges for an additional murder are brought upon her assailant. But Jones was on her way to an abortion clinic anyway so no additional charges are made.

One was a murdered human being and the other a discard blob of tissue.

That is INSANE.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Do you think that makes any sense?

By "that" I mean the idea that the status of the baby ONLY depends on whether the mother wanted it or not?

Two mothers, one named Smith, one named Jones, suffer the same crime and cease to be pregnant at the same point in gestation of the baby. Smith wanted her baby and so charges for an additional murder are brought upon her assailant. But Jones was on her way to an abortion clinic anyway so no additional charges are made.

One was a murdered human being and the other a discard blob of tissue.

That is INSANE.

One, no. The pa decides charges, not the victim.
two, abortion is specifically NOT covered by fetal laws.
three, i didnt write the crap. But yes, they want to charge folks with as much as possible....and then therre were victims of assualt who lost their almost due now dead infant,, and wanted recourse in the courts.
as for when life befins, go read roe. It explains how they nade ttheir decision and whos rights matter when in regards to abortion.

Ever watch the investigative dramas about police work?

Hahahahahshahahah.
well, that explains a lot. You think tv is reality?! Lol. Thats what attorneys complain about at trial now. Everyone expects csi stuff....its not real. Geez

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Danzig

One, no. The pa decides charges, not the victim.
two, abortion is specifically NOT covered by fetal laws.
three, i didnt write the crap. But yes, they want to charge folks with as much as possible....and then therre were victims of assualt who lost their almost due now dead infant,, and wanted recourse in the courts.
as for when life befins, go read roe. It explains how they nade ttheir decision and whos rights matter when in regards to abortion.

Ever watch the investigative dramas about police work?

Hahahahahshahahah.
well, that explains a lot. You think tv is reality?! Lol. Thats what attorneys complain about at trial now. Everyone expects csi stuff....its not real. Geez

No of course TV dramas are not reality - but I was trying to use as broad an example as possible to say that no matter the motivations for committing a crime, the crime must be stopped, the perpetrator apprehended, tried, and then either sentenced or released.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by joeydb

No of course TV dramas are not reality - but I was trying to use as broad an example as possible to say that no matter the motivations for committing a crime, the crime must be stopped, the perpetrator apprehended, tried, and then either sentenced or released.

Not sure what thats got to do with abortion, which is legal.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by joeydb

No of course TV dramas are not reality - but I was trying to use as broad an example as possible to say that no matter the motivations for committing a crime, the crime must be stopped, the perpetrator apprehended, tried, and then either sentenced or released.

Thanks for your continued participation on this long decided subject.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Not going to change your mind Danzig, and the reverse is certainly true.

But to clarify:

" do you think a woman should go to jail for having a legal abortion?"
No - the point is that abortion should not be legal in the first place since it is ending a human life.

Nope, its not. And again, its up to the woman to be pregnant or not. And they were legal in many states long before roe v wade. Make them illegal again and it'll keep happening....only you'll have dead women too.
I'm figuring tho that doesn't matter. Protect the unborn, but to hell with the born.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by joeydb

But to clarify:

" do you think a woman should go to jail for having a legal abortion?"
No - the point is that abortion should not be legal in the first place since it is ending a human life.

So do you feel women should go to jail for having abortions? Because you know, outlawing something doesn't eliminate it. In fact, during the Victorian era, when abortion was pretty much illegal across the country, some estimates put the per capita rate of abortion at 8 times what it is today.

So, what do you propose the punishment for these mothers (because the majority of women who have elective abortions already have at least one child) be? How many years do you think they should be locked away from their already living children for, Joey? What do you think is an appropriate sentence? Because if you're going to say it should be illegal, you need to be willing to back that up with what you think an appropriate sentence is.

Of course, outlaw it and the sentence for many women will be death. In the years immediately prior to Roe, 17 percent of maternal mortality deaths were due to illegal abortions. And in the mid 20th century it was estimated that there were between 200,000 and 1 million illegal abortions a year. This is when it was illegal, Joey. You think that's going to change if it's made illegal again? Please. We had almost 100 years of it being illegal and the rate per year was anywhere from 200,000 to 2,000,000 a year, depending on the source. And that's with a lot smaller population than we have today.

And the stats today- a vacuum-aspiration abortion carries a risk of death prior to eight weeks' gestation of one in one million. An abortion after 20 weeks' gestation creeps up to a little less than 9 in one million.

And childbirth? 12.7 per 100,000 will die. In just my own experience, I know one 13 year old girl whose mother died in childbirth and a pair of 4 year old twins whose mother died birthing them.

The long and short of it is, if abortion is outlawed, it will continue, at likely the same numbers it happens now, but the big difference is thousands of women will die every year from it, as they did in the past. Wives will die. Mothers will die. Daughters will die. They will die.

If you support abortion being made illegal again, you are saying you think death is an appropriate punishment for getting an abortion, because that will be the real world effect, no matter what fairy tale you try to spin for yourself. So never mind, Joey. You already answered Danzig's question.

[GenuineRisk]

But hey, I think we found Joey's candidate for President:

http://jezebel.com/mike-huckabee-den...-vi-1724398646

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

But hey, I think we found Joey's candidate for President:

http://jezebel.com/mike-huckabee-den...-vi-1724398646

He is a cretin. No girl or woman should be forced to have to go thru all that. Shes learned some harsh lessons at a young age. Shes had her life changed forever because shes had to live with other peoples decisions forced upon her time and again.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

So do you feel women should go to jail for having abortions? Because you know, outlawing something doesn't eliminate it. In fact, during the Victorian era, when abortion was pretty much illegal across the country, some estimates put the per capita rate of abortion at 8 times what it is today.

So, what do you propose the punishment for these mothers (because the majority of women who have elective abortions already have at least one child) be? How many years do you think they should be locked away from their already living children for, Joey? What do you think is an appropriate sentence? Because if you're going to say it should be illegal, you need to be willing to back that up with what you think an appropriate sentence is.

Of course, outlaw it and the sentence for many women will be death. In the years immediately prior to Roe, 17 percent of maternal mortality deaths were due to illegal abortions. And in the mid 20th century it was estimated that there were between 200,000 and 1 million illegal abortions a year. This is when it was illegal, Joey. You think that's going to change if it's made illegal again? Please. We had almost 100 years of it being illegal and the rate per year was anywhere from 200,000 to 2,000,000 a year, depending on the source. And that's with a lot smaller population than we have today.

And the stats today- a vacuum-aspiration abortion carries a risk of death prior to eight weeks' gestation of one in one million. An abortion after 20 weeks' gestation creeps up to a little less than 9 in one million.

And childbirth? 12.7 per 100,000 will die. In just my own experience, I know one 13 year old girl whose mother died in childbirth and a pair of 4 year old twins whose mother died birthing them.

The long and short of it is, if abortion is outlawed, it will continue, at likely the same numbers it happens now, but the big difference is thousands of women will die every year from it, as they did in the past. Wives will die. Mothers will die. Daughters will die. They will die.

If you support abortion being made illegal again, you are saying you think death is an appropriate punishment for getting an abortion, because that will be the real world effect, no matter what fairy tale you try to spin for yourself. So never mind, Joey. You already answered Danzig's question.

Which part of it "ending a human life" did you miss?

Every practice that is outlawed continues to some degree. There is drug abuse. There is underage drinking. There is insider trading. Yes, there are other varieties of murder. But obviously the incidence of these things goes down when they are outlawed and punishment after due process is applied.

Ever watch the investigative dramas about police work? There are many, many characters depicted that are in a bind, maybe they murder to end exploitation or blackmail, or they got carried away with an emotional reaction, or they were just stone cold evil. In every case, the sorting out of the case is left to the courts. The apprehension and charging of the suspect is uniformly carried out by the police, and then the case is adjudicated by the court.

That is all fiction of course, but it should say something about how we view the law and how we teach our kids (the ones not aborted), about right and wrong.

The idea that we would let a heinous practice continue to be legal just because people will continue to do it is not one that I would support.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Which part of it "ending a human life" did you miss?

Every practice that is outlawed continues to some degree. There is drug abuse. There is underage drinking. There is insider trading. Yes, there are other varieties of murder. But obviously the incidence of these things goes down when they are outlawed and punishment after due process is applied.

Ever watch the investigative dramas about police work? There are many, many characters depicted that are in a bind, maybe they murder to end exploitation or blackmail, or they got carried away with an emotional reaction, or they were just stone cold evil. In every case, the sorting out of the case is left to the courts. The apprehension and charging of the suspect is uniformly carried out by the police, and then the case is adjudicated by the court.

That is all fiction of course, but it should say something about how we view the law and how we teach our kids (the ones not aborted), about right and wrong.

The idea that we would let a heinous practice continue to be legal just because people will continue to do it is not one that I would support.

You've already made clear that you think every woman who gets an abortion should die. You know, seeing as how 1 out of 3 women terminates a pregnancy before the age of 45, that means you likely have some friends (assuming you have female friends, I could be wrong on this) that you think should die for their "crimes."

This "heinous practice" was legal until about 1867, then illegal nationwide roughly until 1970, when NY State legalized it, and had a 45 percent drop in maternal mortality the following year. So we had a 100 year window to see the effects of making it illegal.

Today, there are roughly 1,100,000 abortions a year. During the 1950s and 1960s, estimates on numbers of illegal abortions range from 200,000 to 1,200,000 a year. (That's in a population of 180 million in 1960, as opposed to the 282 million we have today.) So yeah, making it illegal sure did dissuade women from getting them (pause while my eyes roll back in my head).