Kellyn Gorder - buh bye for 14 months

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Very bizarre compulsion here to pile on a guy who has never shown any signs of being a juicer.

"Has never shown signs of being a juicer"?

Is that the criteria now? Or is it just the *likeable guys* that can get this type of defense?

The "contamination" defense is laughable. Contaminated by exactly what? What possible explanation could there be for methamphetamine in his barn?

It offers ZERO therapeutic benefit, and is banned in every North American racing jurisdiction.

The Steward Ruling by the KHRC doesn't disclose the amount detected in the sample - I can only presume that the "20 picogram" amount being sited is the threshold - why that isn't "0 picograms" is the head-scratcher.

So the guy starts nearly 1000 horses from 2012 - 2014 and averages a 21.1% win rate, then post-bust it drops to 11%...But he's one of the good guys so how dare anyone presume this is nothing but a witch hunt?


Unreal....

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

"Has never shown signs of being a juicer"?

Is that the criteria now? Or is it just the *likeable guys* that can get this type of defense?

The "contamination" defense is laughable. Contaminated by exactly what? What possible explanation could there be for methamphetamine in his barn?

It offers ZERO therapeutic benefit, and is banned in every North American racing jurisdiction.

The Steward Ruling by the KHRC doesn't disclose the amount detected in the sample - I can only presume that the "20 picogram" amount being sited is the threshold - why that isn't "0 picograms" is the head-scratcher.

So the guy starts nearly 1000 horses from 2012 - 2014 and averages a 21.1% win rate, then post-bust it drops to 11%...But he's one of the good guys so how dare anyone presume this is nothing but a witch hunt?


Unreal....

Is it remotely possible that a worker in the barn had the meth and touched something that the horse ingested?

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by jms62

Is it remotely possible that a worker in the barn had the meth and touched something that the horse ingested?

You're welcome to read the linked article where he states that all of his employees were drug tested and none failed. But I'm sure that a worker shook the hand of a meth head and then handled a bunch of needles - that makes complete sense.

I'm not continuing on with this, feel free to keep on keepin' on amongst yourselves.

I for one an glad when this sh1t gets found out and the cheaters are getting punished. US racing is a laughing stock globally, principally due to this "head on the sand" mentality.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

You're welcome to read the linked article where he states that all of his employees were drug tested and none failed. But I'm sure that a worker shook the hand of a meth head and then handled a bunch of needles - that makes complete sense.

I'm not continuing on with this, feel free to keep on keepin' on amongst yourselves.

I for one an glad when this sh1t gets found out and the cheaters are getting punished. US racing is a laughing stock globally, principally due to this "head on the sand" mentality.

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

When stories, like this one, eventually get out to the international racing community - you may want to read what is said - particularly in the comments sections of the British press. It may open your eyes a bit.

There is no doubt that we produce the finest thoroughbreds in the world, and there is global demand for their racing ability and stallion prospects.

I do not buy the argument that we have "too much racing". It simply isn't true. The majority of racing in this country is mid-bottom level claiming at places most of us don't even bet.

There are only a handful of A-List tracks in this country, and from Keeneland to Aqueduct racing stock is paltry.

Why do horses in Europe, Hong Kong and Japan start more often than ours?

Simple question.

If one doesn't think there is too much medication in racing, and there are too many pushing the envelope with medication (legal and otherwise), then this whole episode is probably offensive to one's sensibilities. I get it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

When stories, like this one, eventually get out to the international racing community - you may want to read what is said - particularly in the comments sections of the British press. It may open your eyes a bit.

There is no doubt that we produce the finest thoroughbreds in the world, and there is global demand for their racing ability and stallion prospects.

I do not buy the argument that we have "too much racing". It simply isn't true. The majority of racing in this country is mid-bottom level claiming at places most of us don't even bet.

There are only a handful of A-List tracks in this country, and from Keeneland to Aqueduct racing stock is paltry.

Why do horses in Europe, Hong Kong and Japan start more often than ours?

Simple question.

If one doesn't think there is too much medication in racing, and there are too many pushing the envelope with medication (legal and otherwise), then this whole episode is probably offensive to one's sensibilities. I get it.

just googled, and found this in a ny times article:

The average horse in the U.K. started 6.3 times in 2006, according to the most recent statistics available from the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities. That is exactly the same average start for horses in the United States. Horses in France raced slightly less, with an average of 5.8 starts. In Hong Kong, the average number of starts was 7.8.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

i was thinking the same thing, that the amount of racing has to be different. and we have a lot of dirt racing, whereas turf is limited for races, thus more starters for less races countrywide in europe and elsewhere. less tracks, less opportunities would automatically inflate the number of starters.

it's not a simple graph that can be taken at face value.
as for gorder-if this is a one off, than i'm sorry for him. but all trainers who get a reputation started from no positives. i can see where people get jaded when they hear a trainer got a positive, that it's just assumed 'here we go again'. and all of them have friends who support and defend them. and you hear the same defense over and over...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

Well said.

[Cannon Shell]

There is next to zero chance that anyone especially a trainer in the position that Gorder is in would knowingly or intentionally give their horse meth.

The idea that a street drug, especially Meth in the state of KY (meth capital of the US) , found at the picogram level wouldn't be the result of contamination is the hard to believe part.

It is close to impossible to police your horses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is extremely hard to eliminate all human contact from your horses.
At the picogram level the horse could be contaminated by almost any contact. A maintenance worker from the track pees in the receiving barn stall after fixing a broken light bulb or cleaning the stall. A feed company employee. A test barn employee. Someone at the lab. Maybe the assistant trainer cashed his check before the race ad didnt wash his hands before putting on the tongue tie?

All sound a bit far fetched but a whole lot less far fetched than Gorder intentionally giving a first time in a year starter meth.
I'm amazed that people actually think that any viable trainer would try that.

The fact is that being a trainer nowdays is a nightmare. The rules are never actually spelled out for us, we virtually have no rights regardless of whether we are actually at fault, if we win too much we are suspicious, if we dont win enough we are clueless...

Often we arent getting paid for our services yet because a live animal is the the middle of this we have to keep on taking care of it to the best of our abilities or we are the bad guys. When a terrible incident like this happens despite it likely being completely out of our control, the internet judge and juries convict us instantly and we are blamed for the demise of racing and the euros disdain for our racing (they dont seem to like the NFL too much and they dont seem to worried).

Say you loan your car to your 17 year old kid to go to the mall. He picks up some of his friends and maybe one of those friends is a little shady and has a little bag of meth that he hides in the glove compartment when no one is looking. Now you get in the car and get pulled over for speeding and when you open the glove compartment out drop the little bag of meth that you had no idea was there. Cops arrest you for possession. Are you really a criminal?

[RHT2004]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is next to zero chance that anyone especially a trainer in the position that Gorder is in would knowingly or intentionally give their horse meth.

The idea that a street drug, especially Meth in the state of KY (meth capital of the US) , found at the picogram level wouldn't be the result of contamination is the hard to believe part.

It is close to impossible to police your horses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is extremely hard to eliminate all human contact from your horses.
At the picogram level the horse could be contaminated by almost any contact. A maintenance worker from the track pees in the receiving barn stall after fixing a broken light bulb or cleaning the stall. A feed company employee. A test barn employee. Someone at the lab. Maybe the assistant trainer cashed his check before the race ad didnt wash his hands before putting on the tongue tie?

All sound a bit far fetched but a whole lot less far fetched than Gorder intentionally giving a fist time starter meth.
I'm amazed that people actually think that any viable trainer would try that.

The fact is that being a trainer nowdays is a nightmare. The rules are never actually spelled out for us, we virtually have no rights regardless of whether we are actually at fault, if we win too much we are suspicious, if we dont win enough we are clueless...

Often we arent getting paid for our services yet because a live animal is the the middle of this we have to keep on taking care of it to the best of our abilities or we are the bad guys. When a terrible incident like this happens despite it likely being completely out of our control, the internet judge and juries convict us instantly and we are blamed for the demise of racing and the euros disdain for our racing (they dont seem to like the NFL too much and they dont seem to worried).

Say you loan your car to your 17 year old kid to go to the mall. He picks up some of his friends and maybe one of those friends is a little shady and has a little bag of meth that he hides in the glove compartment when no one is looking. Now you get in the car and get pulled over for speeding and when you open the glove compartment out drop the little bag of meth that you had no idea was there. Cops arrest you for possession. Are you really a criminal?

Makings lots of sense Chuck.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is next to zero chance that anyone especially a trainer in the position that Gorder is in would knowingly or intentionally give their horse meth.

The idea that a street drug, especially Meth in the state of KY (meth capital of the US) , found at the picogram level wouldn't be the result of contamination is the hard to believe part.

It is close to impossible to police your horses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is extremely hard to eliminate all human contact from your horses.
At the picogram level the horse could be contaminated by almost any contact. A maintenance worker from the track pees in the receiving barn stall after fixing a broken light bulb or cleaning the stall. A feed company employee. A test barn employee. Someone at the lab. Maybe the assistant trainer cashed his check before the race ad didnt wash his hands before putting on the tongue tie?

All sound a bit far fetched but a whole lot less far fetched than Gorder intentionally giving a fist time starter meth.
I'm amazed that people actually think that any viable trainer would try that.

The fact is that being a trainer nowdays is a nightmare. The rules are never actually spelled out for us, we virtually have no rights regardless of whether we are actually at fault, if we win too much we are suspicious, if we dont win enough we are clueless...

Often we arent getting paid for our services yet because a live animal is the the middle of this we have to keep on taking care of it to the best of our abilities or we are the bad guys. When a terrible incident like this happens despite it likely being completely out of our control, the internet judge and juries convict us instantly and we are blamed for the demise of racing and the euros disdain for our racing (they dont seem to like the NFL too much and they dont seem to worried).

Say you loan your car to your 17 year old kid to go to the mall. He picks up some of his friends and maybe one of those friends is a little shady and has a little bag of meth that he hides in the glove compartment when no one is looking. Now you get in the car and get pulled over for speeding and when you open the glove compartment out drop the little bag of meth that you had no idea was there. Cops arrest you for possession. Are you really a criminal?

Chuck, unless you and Steve are privy to some information that isn't spelled out in the Steward's Ruling, then I don't know why this minimum picogram amount keeps getting brought up, and hypotheticals about a meth-head stall mucker's comb falling into a pile of hay, which got disturbed at the precise moment that the pee cup was deployed, and by osmosis precisely 21 picograms of crystal meth flew into the pee cup - I don't buy it for a second.

It isn't like it's odd that a trainer - perhaps predisposed to taking a edge, or perhaps pressured by an owner to get his firster home, with the promise of more/better stock- would use meth.
It's essentially speed - it increases heart rate, adrenalin, etc. which enhances performance; Zilpaterol abuse has been a problem in New Mexico until they started suspending everyone caught using it for 3 years (Gorder should count his blessings).

He got caught using a Class A substance. Period. It really doesn't matter if he's been getting away with it for 1, 3 or 10 years, or if this was the first time. And it doesn't matter that it wasn't cobra venom or frog juice. And it really doesn't matter that he's an affable guy, rather than a douche-bag.

It was a class A substance, and let's knock the BS off - was given to the horse by someone in his barn. Someone needs to be held accountable, and it's his barn.

[Left Bank]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is next to zero chance that anyone especially a trainer in the position that Gorder is in would knowingly or intentionally give their horse meth.

The idea that a street drug, especially Meth in the state of KY (meth capital of the US) , found at the picogram level wouldn't be the result of contamination is the hard to believe part.

It is close to impossible to police your horses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is extremely hard to eliminate all human contact from your horses.
At the picogram level the horse could be contaminated by almost any contact. A maintenance worker from the track pees in the receiving barn stall after fixing a broken light bulb or cleaning the stall. A feed company employee. A test barn employee. Someone at the lab. Maybe the assistant trainer cashed his check before the race ad didnt wash his hands before putting on the tongue tie?

All sound a bit far fetched but a whole lot less far fetched than Gorder intentionally giving a first time in a year starter meth.
I'm amazed that people actually think that any viable trainer would try that.

The fact is that being a trainer nowdays is a nightmare. The rules are never actually spelled out for us, we virtually have no rights regardless of whether we are actually at fault, if we win too much we are suspicious, if we dont win enough we are clueless...

Often we arent getting paid for our services yet because a live animal is the the middle of this we have to keep on taking care of it to the best of our abilities or we are the bad guys. When a terrible incident like this happens despite it likely being completely out of our control, the internet judge and juries convict us instantly and we are blamed for the demise of racing and the euros disdain for our racing (they dont seem to like the NFL too much and they dont seem to worried).

Say you loan your car to your 17 year old kid to go to the mall. He picks up some of his friends and maybe one of those friends is a little shady and has a little bag of meth that he hides in the glove compartment when no one is looking. Now you get in the car and get pulled over for speeding and when you open the glove compartment out drop the little bag of meth that you had no idea was there. Cops arrest you for possession. Are you really a criminal?

Well said, Chuck.

[saratogadew]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

You're welcome to read the linked article where he states that all of his employees were drug tested and none failed. But I'm sure that a worker shook the hand of a meth head and then handled a bunch of needles - that makes complete sense.

I'm not continuing on with this, feel free to keep on keepin' on amongst yourselves.

I for one an glad when this sh1t gets found out and the cheaters are getting punished. US racing is a laughing stock globally, principally due to this "head on the sand" mentality.

I don't care what the hypocrital global racing community thinks about our racing. That's exactly why Meydan switched to dirt. To lure our laughable stock.

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by jms62

Is it remotely possible that a worker in the barn had the meth and touched something that the horse ingested?

Jim I'm a board certified toxicologist and this is highly unlikely.

[10 pnt move up]

related barn search turned up syringes and unlabeled bottles of medication, according to the stewards’ rulings.


seems dangerous to have medicines with no labels, i might give that a try at my house and see how it works out for me.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

related barn search turned up syringes and unlabeled bottles of medication, according to the stewards’ rulings.


seems dangerous to have medicines with no labels, i might give that a try at my house and see how it works out for me.

It doesn't matter.

He's not a 'drop and pop' guy who runs horses down peoples throats. Those guys get vilified because their win % (an overrated stat) is high due to their aggressive placement of horses.

Their methods can incite fans and bettors and annoy rival trainers.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

Jim I'm a board certified toxicologist and this is highly unlikely.

Thanks Knicks. I'm not defending the guy just trying to throw a scenario out there to see if it is possible. Obviously I don't know what I am talking about but that won't stop me

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by jms62

Thanks Knicks. I'm not defending the guy just trying to throw a scenario out there to see if it is possible. Obviously I don't know what I am talking about but that won't stop me

Lol. There are so many ways samples get contaminated though.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

"Has never shown signs of being a juicer"?

Is that the criteria now? Or is it just the *likeable guys* that can get this type of defense?

The "contamination" defense is laughable. Contaminated by exactly what? What possible explanation could there be for methamphetamine in his barn?

It offers ZERO therapeutic benefit, and is banned in every North American racing jurisdiction.

The Steward Ruling by the KHRC doesn't disclose the amount detected in the sample - I can only presume that the "20 picogram" amount being sited is the threshold - why that isn't "0 picograms" is the head-scratcher.

So the guy starts nearly 1000 horses from 2012 - 2014 and averages a 21.1% win rate, then post-bust it drops to 11%...But he's one of the good guys so how dare anyone presume this is nothing but a witch hunt?


Unreal....

Show me his big move-ups off trainer switches. Show me his increased breakdown rate. Show me his litany of suspensions or fines. Your numbers are just the basis for irresponsible conjecture. He's been in the high teens in win % pretty much his whole career and you showed me one outlier on each side, both of which apparently prove your point.

I'm not a doctor or a scientist, but what is the more logical conclusion? That he's been shooting his horses up with meth to be a slightly above-average trainer for years, or that one horse of his came in contact with an almost incomprehensibly small amount of it for one reason or another?

I'm not saying he shouldn't be scrutinized or even suspended, but the pitchforks and scalp cravings should be reserved for real cheaters, who clearly game the system again and again. There hasn't been a whiff of suspicion around Kellyn Gorder until this moment, so excuse me if I give someone the benefit of the doubt for once.