Kellyn Gorder - buh bye for 14 months

[Kasept]

It's sad that anyone here would immediately presume the worst of a person like Kellyn Gorder, not to mention gleefully celebrate him having to deal with this kind of problem. He's had one clenbuterol overage from 1700+ starters in 10+ years, but behind the scenes has been using Class 1 drugs that readily test at any lab? Right.. That makes perfect sense.

His reputation as a horseman among his peers -- and employers like ultimate straight arrow owner Bill Casner -- is impeccable. But believe whatever you want. If they're going to make 'examples' of someone like Kellyn Gorder without practical common sense, there's no reason for any trainer to stay in the sport.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's sad that anyone here would immediately presume the worst of a person like Kellyn Gorder, not to mention gleefully celebrate him having to deal with this kind of problem. He's had one clenbuterol overage from 1700+ starters in 10+ years, but behind the scenes has been using Class 1 drugs that readily test at any lab? Right.. That makes perfect sense.

His reputation as a horseman among his peers -- and employers like ultimate straight arrow owner Bill Casner -- is impeccable. But believe whatever you want. If they're going to make 'examples' of someone like Kellyn Gorder without practical common sense, there's no reason for any trainer to stay in the sport.

Very bizarre compulsion here to pile on a guy who has never shown any signs of being a juicer, but obviously the only explanation for his average to slightly above average success rate over the years has been all the meth he pumps his horses with.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Very bizarre compulsion here to pile on a guy who has never shown any signs of being a juicer.

"Has never shown signs of being a juicer"?

Is that the criteria now? Or is it just the *likeable guys* that can get this type of defense?

The "contamination" defense is laughable. Contaminated by exactly what? What possible explanation could there be for methamphetamine in his barn?

It offers ZERO therapeutic benefit, and is banned in every North American racing jurisdiction.

The Steward Ruling by the KHRC doesn't disclose the amount detected in the sample - I can only presume that the "20 picogram" amount being sited is the threshold - why that isn't "0 picograms" is the head-scratcher.

So the guy starts nearly 1000 horses from 2012 - 2014 and averages a 21.1% win rate, then post-bust it drops to 11%...But he's one of the good guys so how dare anyone presume this is nothing but a witch hunt?


Unreal....

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

"Has never shown signs of being a juicer"?

Is that the criteria now? Or is it just the *likeable guys* that can get this type of defense?

The "contamination" defense is laughable. Contaminated by exactly what? What possible explanation could there be for methamphetamine in his barn?

It offers ZERO therapeutic benefit, and is banned in every North American racing jurisdiction.

The Steward Ruling by the KHRC doesn't disclose the amount detected in the sample - I can only presume that the "20 picogram" amount being sited is the threshold - why that isn't "0 picograms" is the head-scratcher.

So the guy starts nearly 1000 horses from 2012 - 2014 and averages a 21.1% win rate, then post-bust it drops to 11%...But he's one of the good guys so how dare anyone presume this is nothing but a witch hunt?


Unreal....

Is it remotely possible that a worker in the barn had the meth and touched something that the horse ingested?

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by jms62

Is it remotely possible that a worker in the barn had the meth and touched something that the horse ingested?

You're welcome to read the linked article where he states that all of his employees were drug tested and none failed. But I'm sure that a worker shook the hand of a meth head and then handled a bunch of needles - that makes complete sense.

I'm not continuing on with this, feel free to keep on keepin' on amongst yourselves.

I for one an glad when this sh1t gets found out and the cheaters are getting punished. US racing is a laughing stock globally, principally due to this "head on the sand" mentality.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

You're welcome to read the linked article where he states that all of his employees were drug tested and none failed. But I'm sure that a worker shook the hand of a meth head and then handled a bunch of needles - that makes complete sense.

I'm not continuing on with this, feel free to keep on keepin' on amongst yourselves.

I for one an glad when this sh1t gets found out and the cheaters are getting punished. US racing is a laughing stock globally, principally due to this "head on the sand" mentality.

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

When stories, like this one, eventually get out to the international racing community - you may want to read what is said - particularly in the comments sections of the British press. It may open your eyes a bit.

There is no doubt that we produce the finest thoroughbreds in the world, and there is global demand for their racing ability and stallion prospects.

I do not buy the argument that we have "too much racing". It simply isn't true. The majority of racing in this country is mid-bottom level claiming at places most of us don't even bet.

There are only a handful of A-List tracks in this country, and from Keeneland to Aqueduct racing stock is paltry.

Why do horses in Europe, Hong Kong and Japan start more often than ours?

Simple question.

If one doesn't think there is too much medication in racing, and there are too many pushing the envelope with medication (legal and otherwise), then this whole episode is probably offensive to one's sensibilities. I get it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

i was thinking the same thing, that the amount of racing has to be different. and we have a lot of dirt racing, whereas turf is limited for races, thus more starters for less races countrywide in europe and elsewhere. less tracks, less opportunities would automatically inflate the number of starters.

it's not a simple graph that can be taken at face value.
as for gorder-if this is a one off, than i'm sorry for him. but all trainers who get a reputation started from no positives. i can see where people get jaded when they hear a trainer got a positive, that it's just assumed 'here we go again'. and all of them have friends who support and defend them. and you hear the same defense over and over...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I do not disagree with your sentiment regarding real offenders, but the statement I bolded is a misnomer. Europeans love to look down their nose at American racing, but in actuality, they love to buy our stallions. The Japanese love to buy our stallions, and Sunday Silence more or less revolutionized their breeding industry. The main track in Dubai was converted to dirt so that Americans would get more involved. South Americans clamored for simulcast racing from the US, as has most of South Africa. Additionally, Wesley Ward has laughed his way to millions in purses and sales to European interests with his exploits over the last 5 years.

What our problem is, and your chart made it very clear, is that we have too much racing. This is a well-known fact, but is actually what people largely stick their heads in the sand about.

Well said.

[saratogadew]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

You're welcome to read the linked article where he states that all of his employees were drug tested and none failed. But I'm sure that a worker shook the hand of a meth head and then handled a bunch of needles - that makes complete sense.

I'm not continuing on with this, feel free to keep on keepin' on amongst yourselves.

I for one an glad when this sh1t gets found out and the cheaters are getting punished. US racing is a laughing stock globally, principally due to this "head on the sand" mentality.

I don't care what the hypocrital global racing community thinks about our racing. That's exactly why Meydan switched to dirt. To lure our laughable stock.

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by jms62

Is it remotely possible that a worker in the barn had the meth and touched something that the horse ingested?

Jim I'm a board certified toxicologist and this is highly unlikely.

[10 pnt move up]

related barn search turned up syringes and unlabeled bottles of medication, according to the stewards’ rulings.


seems dangerous to have medicines with no labels, i might give that a try at my house and see how it works out for me.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

related barn search turned up syringes and unlabeled bottles of medication, according to the stewards’ rulings.


seems dangerous to have medicines with no labels, i might give that a try at my house and see how it works out for me.

It doesn't matter.

He's not a 'drop and pop' guy who runs horses down peoples throats. Those guys get vilified because their win % (an overrated stat) is high due to their aggressive placement of horses.

Their methods can incite fans and bettors and annoy rival trainers.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

Jim I'm a board certified toxicologist and this is highly unlikely.

Thanks Knicks. I'm not defending the guy just trying to throw a scenario out there to see if it is possible. Obviously I don't know what I am talking about but that won't stop me

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by jms62

Thanks Knicks. I'm not defending the guy just trying to throw a scenario out there to see if it is possible. Obviously I don't know what I am talking about but that won't stop me

Lol. There are so many ways samples get contaminated though.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

"Has never shown signs of being a juicer"?

Is that the criteria now? Or is it just the *likeable guys* that can get this type of defense?

The "contamination" defense is laughable. Contaminated by exactly what? What possible explanation could there be for methamphetamine in his barn?

It offers ZERO therapeutic benefit, and is banned in every North American racing jurisdiction.

The Steward Ruling by the KHRC doesn't disclose the amount detected in the sample - I can only presume that the "20 picogram" amount being sited is the threshold - why that isn't "0 picograms" is the head-scratcher.

So the guy starts nearly 1000 horses from 2012 - 2014 and averages a 21.1% win rate, then post-bust it drops to 11%...But he's one of the good guys so how dare anyone presume this is nothing but a witch hunt?


Unreal....

Show me his big move-ups off trainer switches. Show me his increased breakdown rate. Show me his litany of suspensions or fines. Your numbers are just the basis for irresponsible conjecture. He's been in the high teens in win % pretty much his whole career and you showed me one outlier on each side, both of which apparently prove your point.

I'm not a doctor or a scientist, but what is the more logical conclusion? That he's been shooting his horses up with meth to be a slightly above-average trainer for years, or that one horse of his came in contact with an almost incomprehensibly small amount of it for one reason or another?

I'm not saying he shouldn't be scrutinized or even suspended, but the pitchforks and scalp cravings should be reserved for real cheaters, who clearly game the system again and again. There hasn't been a whiff of suspicion around Kellyn Gorder until this moment, so excuse me if I give someone the benefit of the doubt for once.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's sad that anyone here would immediately presume the worst of a person like Kellyn Gorder, not to mention gleefully celebrate him having to deal with this kind of problem. He's had one clenbuterol overage from 1700+ starters in 10+ years, but behind the scenes has been using Class 1 drugs that readily test at any lab? Right.. That makes perfect sense.

His reputation as a horseman among his peers -- and employers like ultimate straight arrow owner Bill Casner -- is impeccable. But believe whatever you want. If they're going to make 'examples' of someone like Kellyn Gorder without practical common sense, there's no reason for any trainer to stay in the sport.

I think its funny that your upset that people have cynical feelings regarding this situation, feelings that have been developed not on this singular instance but over tons of cases and long periods of time for those that follow racing.

The reaction has nothing to do with Gorder and everything to do with the sport.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I think its funny that your upset that people have cynical feelings regarding this situation, feelings that have been developed not on this singular instance but over tons of cases and long periods of time for those that follow racing.

The reaction has nothing to do with Gorder and everything to do with the sport.

Baloney. 'Cynical reaction' is a lazy response.

People here that don't participate in the sport close up have had the benefit of Chuck Simon in particular attempting to educate them regarding the nuances between 'drug positives' and 'medication overages' and the unique elements of operating a public stable. I've tried to do the same in 10 years of broadcasting ATR with features like the RMTC reports and Horse Health with Dr. Allday.

There is more than enough data for people to fairly discern what is identifiable as edge-taking, outright attempts to cheat and circumstances that are readily understandable and/or logically explainable. If you're cynical, it's about you.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Baloney. 'Cynical reaction' is a lazy response.

People here that don't participate in the sport close up have had the benefit of Chuck Simon in particular attempting to educate them regarding the nuances between 'drug positives' and 'medication overages' and the unique elements of operating a public stable. I've tried to do the same in 10 years of broadcasting ATR with features like the RMTC reports and Horse Health with Dr. Allday.

There is more than enough data for people to fairly discern what is identifiable as edge-taking, outright attempts to cheat and circumstances that are readily understandable and/or logically explainable. If you're cynical, it's about you.

Your opinion is biased, I just read the article, the is more evidence than you are suggesting.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Your opinion is biased, I just read the article, the is more evidence than you are suggesting.

My opinion is indeed biased.. It's biased through a filter of knowledge and comprehension.