Sour grapes???

[pointman]

Here is a link to the Gem City Gal race, she is the 4 horse. Watch his arms on the turn and through the stretch.

http://www.nyra.com/belmont/videos/r...0140621/3/pan/

If I remember correctly he said the horse was getting out. Maybe so, but it seemed to me that a right handed hit could have helped that as opposed to his response to not ride the horse.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by pointman

Here is a link to the Gem City Gal race, she is the 4 horse. Watch his arms on the turn and through the stretch.

http://www.nyra.com/belmont/videos/r...0140621/3/pan/

If I remember correctly he said the horse was getting out. Maybe so, but it seemed to me that a right handed hit could have helped that as opposed to his response to not ride the horse.

at least you could see that horse getting out, but still, that effort is so poor.

[iamthelurker]

Originally Posted by pointman

Here is a link to the Gem City Gal race, she is the 4 horse. Watch his arms on the turn and through the stretch.

http://www.nyra.com/belmont/videos/r...0140621/3/pan/

If I remember correctly he said the horse was getting out. Maybe so, but it seemed to me that a right handed hit could have helped that as opposed to his response to not ride the horse.

Was she ever going to finish higher than 3rd? He didn't make much effort but if he had finished 4th I'd understand the outrage more.

And Cazanova was getting out which is Alvarados only feasible explanation for trying to go inside of him at the point of the turn.

[Danzig]

a jock should be called out, or more, for a bad ride. especially if he quit on the horse and most likely cost it finishing higher. there's no reason to accept things like that.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by iamthelurker

Was she ever going to finish higher than 3rd? He didn't make much effort but if he had finished 4th I'd understand the outrage more.

And Cazanova was getting out which is Alvarados only feasible explanation for trying to go inside of him at the point of the turn.

Seriously? Clearly you don't understand the rules of the game.

The horse was on the lead coming off the turn, was never asked to run and Ortiz never went to the whip.

You have never seen a horse come off the turn, be asked and go on to win a race?

[iamthelurker]

Originally Posted by pointman

Seriously? Clearly you don't understand the rules of the game.

The horse was on the lead coming off the turn, was never asked to run and Ortiz never went to the whip.

You have never seen a horse come off the turn, be asked and go on to win a race?

Clearly, someone lost a bet.

He's getting passed by both inside and outside horses coming off the turn while badly getting out (a sign of a tiring horse).

I have seen horses come off the turn be asked for more and go on to win races.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by iamthelurker

Clearly, someone lost a bet.

He's getting passed by both inside and outside horses coming off the turn while badly getting out (a sign of a tiring horse).

I have seen horses come off the turn be asked for more and go on to win races.

I did lose a bet. And I have every right to be pissed off that the horse I bet was ridden by a jock who made no effort to win the race.

Your conclusion that she would not have finished any better is ridiculous and not supported by the evidence. Nothing on the tape suggests the horse was tiring. Horses get out all the time and win races.

The horse was in position to win the race and was never asked. Real bettors understand that a ride like that has to be questioned. It is not too much to ask a rider to move his arms when in position to win a race. The rules and the integrity of the game demand it.

[iamthelurker]

Originally Posted by pointman

I did lose a bet. And I have every right to be pissed off that the horse I bet was ridden by a jock who made no effort to win the race.

Your conclusion that she would not have finished any better is ridiculous and not supported by the evidence. Nothing on the tape suggests the horse was tiring. Horses get out all the time and win races.

The horse was in position to win the race and was never asked. Real bettors understand that a ride like that has to be questioned. It is not too much to ask a rider to move his arms when in position to win a race. The rules and the integrity of the game demand it.

Hold on, are you saying it was a lazy pile of garbage ride (which I agreed with you on) or are you suggesting that Jose Ortiz made a conscious decision to stiff the horse?

[pointman]

Originally Posted by iamthelurker

Hold on, are you saying it was a lazy pile of garbage ride (which I agreed with you on) or are you suggesting that Jose Ortiz made a conscious decision to stiff the horse?

Does it really matter? The issue is whether Ortiz rode Gem City Gal when she was in a position to win the race. I expect a rider to at the very least to put in an effort to try to win a race.

Is it too much to ask Ortiz to at least move his arms when he has the horse in a position to win the race? The integrity of the game demands that the stewards take action in a situation like this. My point was that if the stewards took no action on Gem City Gal, one cannot expect they would take action on the other race. And that is unfortunate.

[asudevil]

Originally Posted by iamthelurker

Was she ever going to finish higher than 3rd? He didn't make much effort but if he had finished 4th I'd understand the outrage more.

And Cazanova was getting out which is Alvarados only feasible explanation for trying to go inside of him at the point of the turn.

Like no offense.....but were you watching the same race that we are discussing. Turning for home Ortiz hadn't even moved a muscle.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by asudevil

Like no offense.....but were you watching the same race that we are discussing. Turning for home Ortiz hadn't even moved a muscle.

I think races are getting mixed with the intro of the Gem City race....

sticking to this one it looks worse as they horse was not getting out at all.

Its not like this was a bad decision by a rider which happens, this seemed like he was pulling the horse for no reason.

[iamthelurker]

Originally Posted by asudevil

Like no offense.....but were you watching the same race that we are discussing. Turning for home Ortiz hadn't even moved a muscle.

Yes I am, you guys are right Ortiz should have put his horse into an aggressive drive midway through the turn under right handed urging. That would of given the people who bet on his horse some sense of comfort when it faded to finish a well beaten 3rd.

Instead he was lazy, knew his horse was tiring and didn't make much effort.

Anyone who thinks Gem City Gal runs anything better than 3rd in that race is wrong.

[iamthelurker]

The outrage over jockeys who wrap on horses that are going to run off the board is a tricky debate to get into. Is a rider supposed to lay into a tiring horse for the sake of the money placed on that horses efforts? Or is he supposed to take the horses well being and condition coming out of the race into mind. What would the gambler want? What would the trainer/owner want? What is right?

This is why things like this most likely warrant case by case opinions but both gamblers and trainers/owners all only have one scapegoat once the gates open and that's the man risking his life on board.

And really come on guys this Jose Ortiz couldn't even shine Jose Santos or Kent D's boots when it comes to wrapping up on a horse who may have actually ran 2nd instead of 4th.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by iamthelurker

The outrage over jockeys who wrap on horses that are going to run off the board is a tricky debate to get into. Is a rider supposed to lay into a tiring horse for the sake of the money placed on that horses efforts? Or is he supposed to take the horses well being and condition coming out of the race into mind. What would the gambler want? What would the trainer/owner want? What is right?

This is why things like this most likely warrant case by case opinions but both gamblers and trainers/owners all only have one scapegoat once the gates open and that's the man risking his life on board.

And really come on guys this Jose Ortiz couldn't even shine Jose Santos or Kent D's boots when it comes to wrapping up on a horse who may have actually ran 2nd instead of 4th.

I have no problem with riders wrapping up on tiring horses. That is not something that I ever complain about. But these two cases looked different. In both of these cases, he is easing horses at the quarter pole. When you see that, you are expecting one of two things. The first possibility is that the horses are lame and are going to be pulled up. The second possibility is that the horses are dead tired and are stopping bad. But neither of those possibilities came to fruition in the two races in question. When you watch those two horses coming down the stretch, they both appeared to be travelling ok and they weren't that tired. Neither horse was really shortening stride. You could see that Gem City Gal still had some run in her.

In fairness to Ortiz, in both of these cases it is possible that these horses just didn't feel right to him. But if I was a steward, I would certainly call him in on both of these cases and get an explanation.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by iamthelurker

Was she ever going to finish higher than 3rd? He didn't make much effort but if he had finished 4th I'd understand the outrage more.

And Cazanova was getting out which is Alvarados only feasible explanation for trying to go inside of him at the point of the turn.

I agree. I thought the horse was gasping turning for home.