ATR Hall of Fame Debate: Gio Ponti?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Every one of those horses you just named would have slaughtered GP, except for maybe Sunshine Forever.

Sunshine Forever's reputation is tarnished by his 4yo season. He was probably a spent horse. In just a 6 month period as a 3yo, he made 12 starts, most at the top level, most against older horses, winning 8 of those.

Next to Kotashaan, who outside of one race did all his winning at Santa Anita, Sunshine Forever would certainly be the choice in a race run at 12f.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Sunshine Forever's reputation is tarnished by his 4yo season. He was probably a spent horse. In just a 6 month period as a 3yo, he made 12 starts, most at the top level, most against older horses, winning 8 of those.

Next to Kotashaan, who outside of one race did all his winning at Santa Anita, Sunshine Forever would certainly be the choice in a race run at 12f.

I may have been fairly biased towards East Coast turf horses back then, but from what I recall, Sunshine Forever wasn't really beating much in the East.

But yeah, I take it back. I think he'd have handled GP.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Sunshine Forever's reputation is tarnished by his 4yo season. He was probably a spent horse. In just a 6 month period as a 3yo, he made 12 starts, most at the top level, most against older horses, winning 8 of those.

Next to Kotashaan, who outside of one race did all his winning at Santa Anita, Sunshine Forever would certainly be the choice in a race run at 12f.

Sunshine Forever got hurt between his 3&4 yr old season. Vetch said he never really tried to run hard after the injury. He was a very game, talented runner.

[cmorioles]

No way in hell is Gio Ponti a Hall of Fame horse.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

No way in hell is Gio Ponti a Hall of Fame horse.

I'm a huge fan of Gio Ponti, and find many inclusions in the Hall of Fame questionable, but I can't imagine how Gio Ponti could be considered a Hall of Fame horse.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by postpicker

You ask about Gio Ponti which made me think of another horse. How do you compare Gio Ponti HOF credentials with Better Talk Now credentials. Do either of them belong? Personally, I think they both belong in the HOF. Problem is, the horses with potential to be in the HOF this century have shortened careers and one can say it will cheapen the HOF if they get in. Thinking with your head and not your heart, does Barbaro belong in the HOF. No, but it will not surprise me he gets in. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are two others with shortened careers that could be put in same category as Barbaro, even though their credentials are better. Both won 2/3 of the Triple Crown but did not race after the Belmont Stakes, so record wise, I'd say both are better than Charismatic and he isnt in the HOF. But with a lack of quality horses becoming eligible in a few years, I can see one or all three getting in.

If any of those three get in, Bold Forbes deserves to be in. He would have flossed with Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex and Barbaro, IMO.

Originally Posted by paulo537

Ok.

We can't forget Karelian either.

Or Engine One....

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by scat daddy

Or Engine One....

If you include Engine One, you have to consider Maudlin and Duke Mitcell.

[Antitrust32]

On no planet should Gio Ponti be a hall of fame race horse.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

On no planet should Gio Ponti be a hall of fame race horse.

Maybe if Pluto were still a planet.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by postpicker

You ask about Gio Ponti which made me think of another horse. How do you compare Gio Ponti HOF credentials with Better Talk Now credentials. Do either of them belong? Personally, I think they both belong in the HOF. Problem is, the horses with potential to be in the HOF this century have shortened careers and one can say it will cheapen the HOF if they get in. Thinking with your head and not your heart, does Barbaro belong in the HOF. No, but it will not surprise me he gets in. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are two others with shortened careers that could be put in same category as Barbaro, even though their credentials are better. Both won 2/3 of the Triple Crown but did not race after the Belmont Stakes, so record wise, I'd say both are better than Charismatic and he isnt in the HOF. But with a lack of quality horses becoming eligible in a few years, I can see one or all three getting in.

Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex and Barbaro dont deserve to be HoF horses. They simply didnt do enough though now days it seems to be a popularity contest and TC horses get an unbelievable amount of publicity versus a turf horse or even a good older horse.

Gio Ponte has been favored in 17 of 28 starts and lost 11 of those 17 times. I don't know how to interpretate this but his inclusion into the hall of Fame would make Jim Rice's selection look good. Shouldnt Hall of Fame horses win 17 out of 28? I know he has those grade 1 wins but they mostly came against subpar competition.

[nebrady]

Gio was one of the most consistent horses there was and if it wasn't for zenyatta and goldikova he would have won two breeders cup races. Won many grade 1 races and won on turf and synthetic. To me it is not even a question. Gonna miss you gio. hope you go out a winner on breeders cup day!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Never won when it counted? Two Shadwells, the Manhattan, two Man O' Wars, the Kilroe, the Arlington Million, those don't 'count'?

Campaigning till you are 6 and not winning a BC race is an issue.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by nebrady

Gio was one of the most consistent horses there was and if it wasn't for zenyatta and goldikova he would have won two breeders cup races. !

If it wasnt for the Raiders the Eagles would have a superbowl trophy.

or a better one for you

If it wasnt for the Giants the Patriots would have been 19-0.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by paulo537

7 G1 wins

14 G1 turf starts with 7 wins.

4 G1 turf starts at 1 Mile. 3 wins. One 2nd to Goldikova.

SW at ages 2,3,4,5,6.

GSW at ages 3,4,5,6

G1 winner at ages 4,5,6

What other horses have NOT made the HoF with 7 Grade 1 wins?

I'd vote yes.

Just curious 14 G1 turf starts withh 7 wins, How many times did he come in 2nd? Hall of Fame..ABSOLUTELY

[Cannon Shell]

Has Gio Ponti ever beaten a horse that won a year-end championship or has a remote chance of being considered a HoF horse?

I dont know anyone who would call him a great horse. Shouldn't that count for something? I still think it is hard to a specialist to campaign through their 6 year old year, never win a BC race and be considered HoF worthy. While it is commendable that he continued to run that long the HoF used to be about truly great horses.

[KirisClown]

How can Gio Ponti be in the Hall of Fame when a horse like Lure is not?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

How can Gio Ponti be in the Hall of Fame when a horse like Lure is not?

One thing in Gio Ponti's meager favor is that he's a multiple Eclipse champion (Lure won no championships), a rare one at that. He's one of only 3 or 4 that have won back-to-back turf titles, and he's the only horse to win the older male Eclipse without having won a race on dirt.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

and he's the only horse to win the older male Eclipse without having won a race on dirt.

Kodiak Kowboy and Einstein (I believe) -- where the two other finalists that year.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Kodiak Kowboy and Einstein (I believe) -- where the two other finalists that year.

Unfortunately, Einstein didn't win a race on dirt, either. Something that year must have won at least 2 graded stakes over a route of ground somewhere?