The Real Championship Meet

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by tjfrab

To Dahoss: I didn't reply to every else's comments or I'd be writing a book.

But you settled on a novella instead?

Anyone have the cliff notes? Did he address the title of his thread? If not....he's still full of sh it.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

But you settled on a novella instead?

Anyone have the cliff notes? Did he address the title of his thread? If not....he's still full of sh it.

[welltakethat]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

No one is saying betting on Havre De Grace last weekend was fun and I can't imagine anyone in this thread did. But when there are so many options for connections to duck and dodge, for big, big money, what are racing organizations supposed to do?

I completely agree re too many options. I believe Steve had mentioned in an earlier post to me on a different issue having some sort of shared series across tracks where divisions are mapped out and campaigns are naturally built. I think without cooperation the sport will continue to spiral down. As you said, if the cotillion is going to run the same week as the beldame and the spinster is the next week, the only solution is to more actively recruit horses from other circuits or move the race. The 4 horse field run away to me does nothing to enhance Harve De Grace's resume, great win in the Woodward by her and she's a great horse. Better than Zenyatta to me. But if this was Europe sheda been in the Gold Cup instead and maybe the field for the Beldame would have been better.

As far as synthetic goes and turf horses benefiting and it being a crap shoot, I guess most on this thread with that view missed the Kentucky Derby this year. I could be misremembering but didn't Animal Kingdom prep on the poly. Oh yea and he won the derby. And ran big in the preakness.

Steve - Thanks for having Plonk on. Heard it on the replay this morning. He to me with his statistical analysis and trending is maybe the top handicapping mind in the public perview today and his Keeneland information that he posts on their site is tremendous.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by welltakethat

As far as synthetic goes and turf horses benefiting and it being a crap shoot, I guess most on this thread with that view missed the Kentucky Derby this year. I could be misremembering but didn't Animal Kingdom prep on the poly. Oh yea and he won the derby. And ran big in the preakness.

Quite an analogy. My guess is you weren't captain of the debate team.

[welltakethat]

Not sure what's wrong with the analogy. You had noted earlier in the thread synthetic surfaces made for a crapshoot and cheapening of those entered. While I actually agree with that point in terms of day to day racing, Animal Kingdom was a horse that ran ultra impressively on a synthetic surface and who could have been a champion had it not been for injury.

I'm not sure of your take on Zenyatta. I think she is overrated historically. But if you are a fan of hers surely the Keeneland argument would extend to synthetic surfaces in California that she ran on, all the time, for basically every race, against nothing fields.

Belmont did have a few stars, but stars in 4 horse fields are irrelevant because their brilliance is mitigated by the ease of trip. If synthetic minimizes a horses credentials so too must those field sizes. I think Uncle Mo and Harve De Grace are the two top horses in training right now in the US, but that doesnt make the racing at Keeneland less enjoyable and interesting and bettable, which in the end drives the sport.

[tjfrab]

Blackthroatedwind- Regarding the title, as I said in a subsequent post, we'll have to see how it plays out in 4 weeks. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one who winds up being "full of sh t" - as you put it. If you would have preferred that I titled it Best Racing In The Country Right Now, then my mistake.

By the way, before you completely toss the poly form or kill their grading, you may want to remember there've been 2 derby winners the last 5 years coming off poly (one Keenland, one Turfway). When's the last time a Wood Memorial runner impacted the derby (which is the biggest race there is)- 2003.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by tjfrab

To Dahoss: I didn't reply to every else's comments or I'd be writing a book. I think there were some good points in there and others I disagree with but I read them all. I could have argued back and forth about an extra grade 1 winner being in a field or 2 but I just don't see the point. I would probably just tell you that just because a horse wins a grade 1, it doesn't make them a top horse these days. At the end of the day it looks like many would swear that was good racing while I wouldn't and I don't think anyone's going to budge on that. But regarding your question of what's NYRA to do? That is a loaded question as you indicated. My experience in racing is strictly as a weekend player (every weekend) over the past 18 years and not from working in a racing office. As such, without common exposure to the horsemen or the inner day to day operations it's tough to feel very confident about responding to that question. But you asked so for starters, I think all circuits need to find ways to employ a 'less is more' initiative. There's just too much racing across the country and horsemen have too many options these days and the demand to fill races (especially stakes) outweighs the supply of horses to fill them. Less racing days and less races appears mandatory to keep quality up. Perhaps there should also be a penalty placed on connections who enter and scratch horses due to something other than physical issues (pending review by track vet) or surface switch. Whether it be a penalty fee or hold placed on being able to run back at the meet or both, I'm not sure. This may tick off horsemen initially but they're the ones not running their horses and other times cross-entering them to take advantage of easiest spot. The Beldame/Cotillion issue is typical in racing in that these jurisdications don't cooperate with eachother. Everyone wants their own piece of the pie without looking forward to the greater good of the sport. Perhaps NYRA should extend the olive branch (not saying they haven't or that other circuits shouldn't but you asked what's NYRA supposed to do) and try to come together for the good of the overall sport (which will have trickle down effects down the road) and work with other tracks when developing the stakes schedule. Without any oversight, that's a toughie though to get implemented. Or here's something that I don't think anybody could argue with. How about trying to coordinate post times better. No reason stakes races at major tracks should go off within 10 minutes of one another. Decent software could solve that problem assuming the parties played ball. Seems like a no-brainer. That won't impact field size or quality but perhaps using something like that to start cross-circuit comradery could lead to the more difficult challenge of stakes coordination agreement in the future.
Maybe all these things are being worked on. If they are, great and I'll look forward to hopefully seeing results.

Definition of the word Paragraph

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by welltakethat

Not sure what's wrong with the analogy. You had noted earlier in the thread synthetic surfaces made for a crapshoot and cheapening of those entered. While I actually agree with that point in terms of day to day racing, Animal Kingdom was a horse that ran ultra impressively on a synthetic surface and who could have been a champion had it not been for injury.

I'm not sure of your take on Zenyatta. I think she is overrated historically. But if you are a fan of hers surely the Keeneland argument would extend to synthetic surfaces in California that she ran on, all the time, for basically every race, against nothing fields.

Belmont did have a few stars, but stars in 4 horse fields are irrelevant because their brilliance is mitigated by the ease of trip. If synthetic minimizes a horses credentials so too must those field sizes. I think Uncle Mo and Harve De Grace are the two top horses in training right now in the US, but that doesnt make the racing at Keeneland less enjoyable and interesting and bettable, which in the end drives the sport.

The first emboldened phrase is never what I said. The second I will guess is an intentional lie and the third is a misrepresentation of the truth.

The rest of the last paragraph has zero to do with the discussion at hand.

All in all? A D.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by tjfrab

Blackthroatedwind- Regarding the title, as I said in a subsequent post, we'll have to see how it plays out in 4 weeks. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one who winds up being "full of sh t" - as you put it. If you would have preferred that I titled it Best Racing In The Country Right Now, then my mistake.

By the way, before you completely toss the poly form or kill their grading, you may want to remember there've been 2 derby winners the last 5 years coming off poly (one Keenland, one Turfway). When's the last time a Wood Memorial runner impacted the derby (which is the biggest race there is)- 2003.

No, it was an incorrect assertion when you wrote it, it remains one, it will be one in a month, a year, and forever. No amount of BS from you and your shadow will change that.

I do like you using Street Sense as a Derby winner coming off polytrack. Nice touch and goes well with the rest of your falsehoods. I guess you think Dominion is a superior horse to him. Considering the crap you have spewed here I wouldn't be surprised.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by tjfrab

Blackthroatedwind- Regarding the title, as I said in a subsequent post, we'll have to see how it plays out in 4 weeks. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one who winds up being "full of sh t" - as you put it. If you would have preferred that I titled it Best Racing In The Country Right Now, then my mistake.

By the way, before you completely toss the poly form or kill their grading, you may want to remember there've been 2 derby winners the last 5 years coming off poly (one Keenland, one Turfway). When's the last time a Wood Memorial runner impacted the derby (which is the biggest race there is)- 2003.

the last wood memorial to have an impact? you might want to look over the fave coming into some recent derbies. of course we had a few scratch out before they could run derby day, but the wood is certainly an impactful race, both derby day and after-unlike the blue grass for example.

[Cannon Shell]

The problem isnt just there are a lot of options, the fact that a handful of trainers control so many of the good horses forces them to split them up. If the horses were spread out among more trainers you would see more balanced fields. But for some reason many owners seem to think that only a few guys can train good horses and as such give those trainers a tremendous amount of leverage when selecting races. There are plenty of horses in NY that would run in stakes there had they not been trained by guys who already had another horse for the race.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Quite an analogy. My guess is you weren't captain of the debate team.

Sharp post.

[Mawhip]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

People have responded to you and you've managed to ignore pretty much all of their responses. Not sure why, but it's tough to discuss things like that. Not attacking (because I can see where this is going to end up) but you've expressed opinions, people have responded and your responses are basically you reiterating the same thing.

Since you want it to get better, what should they be doing that they aren't currently? I realize that is a loaded question, but I assume you have some ideas, and I'd like to hear them.

The Beldame was a two horse race because the Cotillion at Parx is worth twice as much (ridiculous) and is run the same day. Wouldn't the Beldame have looked a lot different with It's Tricky and Plum Pretty? What is NYRA supposed to do in that instance?

I actually enjoy the Keeneland meets, from a wagering standpoint, but it's important to note these large fields we see are because connections are more apt to take a shot on that surface than they are on dirt. Not sure why, but I expect this to change (not overnight) in the next few years with the slots up and running at NYRA.

To answer your question, yes I was excited last Wednesday to bet Saturday's Belmont card. The weather was a big damper.

NYRA could restore the purse to the level it was a few years ago. At 750K, you might have got Plum or Tricky or even Blind Luck.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Mawhip

NYRA could restore the purse to the level it was a few years ago. At 750K, you might have got Plum or Tricky or even Blind Luck.

Or Red Barchetta.

[GPK]

The "real championship meet" has a $86k carryover in their .50 pick 5 carryover tomorrow.

[NTamm1215]

How'd the handle at Keeneland today compare to Belmont's last Saturday? Being the real Championship meet with big fields of competitive racing it had to have blown it out of the water right?

ANSWER: No, Belmont outhandled Keeneland by over 30k per race.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Mawhip

NYRA could restore the purse to the level it was a few years ago. At 750K, you might have got Plum or Tricky or even Blind Luck.

Blind Luck was never coming. I doubt 750k was getting them away from the race at Parx. Why face Havre De Grace if you can run for the same amount elsewhere?

Too many races.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Huh? Moved to the back room? The Paddock is the 'front room', where topics are assured greatest exposure and potential for discussion. You were looking for a discussion, correct? Or was it just a cheap shot directed at NYRA seeking to get a rise out of me and/or Andy?

You know what i find interesting?

This tag team thing...

Tjfrab has 11 posts. Most people are too intimidated to begins threads at this point.

Welltakethat has 17.

Now there are people on this forum who encourage new people or lurkers to post. Maybe not too often but we have gone out of our way (cause we want them to obviously).

This though...

If one looks back over their posts... they both post on Graded Stakes Downgrades...

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...965#post795965

... and on the Dunkirk caller thread...

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28717

Gee they even sound alike.

I think we're a fun bunch here.

Even the couple of people I cannot stand I at least find entertaining and am glad to read their stuff.

This? I know i should have better things to do then to find old posts by a couple of people who are here I don't know.. to stir the pot (?) (... and agree with each other!) but hey I'm sick so it's either this or lose money down under.

I chose this.

Okay carry on.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

How'd the handle at Keeneland today compare to Belmont's last Saturday? Being the real Championship meet with big fields of competitive racing it had to have blown it out of the water right?

ANSWER: No, Belmont outhandled Keeneland by over 30k per race.

Even with lousy weather and four races off the turf....and welltakethat's handle?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Even with lousy weather and four races off the turf....and welltakethat's handle?

That would be $0.

To put things in perspective, the Vosburgh, with 7 betting interests, had more in the exacta pool than any Keeneland stake race today, all of which had more than 7 betting interests.