If Zenyatta wins the Classic

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Linny

Z must win the Classic to beat RA but I'd hardly say that the issue is settled. If some of the leading Euro's take to it like last year's bunch and run huge and the most proven older horses and the leading 3yo's are all beaten by Zenyatta in the Classic, how does RA win for beating a) the same good 3yo's as Z and b) lesser older horses.
IF (and that is a big IF) Z beats all that RA (MTB, SB, Macho Again etc) did and more (granting that Sea the Stars, Einstein, Rail Trip etc are better than Macho Again and Bullsbay) how does she not win HOY.

Sea the Stars is of course much better than Macho Again.. but I dont think Einstein (at this point in his career) and Rail Trip are better than Macho Again and Bullsbay. I'd say they are all pretty equal. And Rail Trip is the unknown cause he runs on the plastic. The West Coast older horses are equally as crappy as the East Coast.. just the Euro's are obviously superior.

[Linny]

I'd say MA and Bullsbay are unknowns on the surface where the proven synthetic runners have the edge in 'capping the Classic.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Linny

I'd say MA and Bullsbay are unknowns on the surface where the proven synthetic runners have the edge in 'capping the Classic.

I would agree with this. I just meant as race horses in general I think they are all pretty equal. On plastic the turfers get the nod. Guess my point is MoOt since the race is on plastic.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Gander

I cant believe this is even a debate anymore!

says a lot doesn't it?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Sea the Stars is of course much better than Macho Again.. but I dont think Einstein (at this point in his career) and Rail Trip are better than Macho Again and Bullsbay. I'd say they are all pretty equal. And Rail Trip is the unknown cause he runs on the plastic. The West Coast older horses are equally as crappy as the East Coast.. just the Euro's are obviously superior.

If Sea of Stars gets beat it will be an all time upset.

What would carry more weight, beating Bullsbay and Macho Again, or beating Sea of Stars....interesting question.

[Gander]

Originally Posted by Linny

I don't have a vote but if I did, and Z were to win the BCC over a field that included Sea The Stars she'sbe HOY in my book. Beating males in the "biggest race of the year" outweighs winning the Woodward/Preakness. I don't think Z could beat even the moderate crew that has been taking turns out there are year (Einstein, Rail Trip etc) but if she did, and beat Sea the Stars -esp if he ran huge in defeat- I'd give the nod to the mare.

You forgot Rachel also won the Haskell over males, probably beating a better horse in Summer Bird than anything she beat in the Wood or Preakness.

Z beat Einstein? LOL. She barely gets up to beat those slowpoke fillies and mares out west. Its always the same boring lineup- Life is Sweet, Briecat, AllIcansayiswow. Big deal. How on earth could she even come close to passing Einstein (I know you agree with me, just putting this out there).

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

If Sea of Stars gets beat it will be an all time upset.

What would carry more weight, beating Bullsbay and Macho Again, or beating Sea of Stars....interesting question.

I personally feel whoever wins the Classic deserves to be voted Turf Champion of the year.

And yes, beating Sea the Stars is better than beating Bullsbay & Macho Again.. unless Sea the Stars throws a clunker and finishes poorly. He may not take to synthetics and run 8th.. which would make RA's victory over Macho better than a victory over Sea the stars.

There is just no way on earth Z wins the Classic anyway.

[Gander]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I personally feel whoever wins the Classic deserves to be voted Turf Champion of the year.

And yes, beating Sea the Stars is better than beating Bullsbay & Macho Again.. unless Sea the Stars throws a clunker and finishes poorly. He may not take to synthetics and run 8th.. which would make RA's victory over Macho better than a victory over Sea the stars.

There is just no way on earth Z wins the Classic anyway.

She wont even run. Its all BS marketing. They did the same thing trying to promote the Travers in 03 pimping the Empire Maker- Funny Cide rematch. They played commercials the week of the race when both horses were already officially out. Dont believe any of this nonsense. Z will run in the Ladies race.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Gander

She wont even run. Its all BS marketing. They did the same thing trying to promote the Travers in 03 pimping the Empire Maker- Funny Cide rematch. They played commercials the week of the race when both horses were already officially out. Dont believe any of this nonsense. Z will run in the Ladies race.

She's never been beyond 1 1/8th... I doubt they try the 1 1/4th distance against the best turf/syn horses in the world. Let alone the open company issue.

Originally Posted by GPK

Yeah, but all the ones that bet are the ones that you either have on "iggy" (what the f*ck are you, a 12 year old girl?) or are on the top of your annoying poster list. Either way, both groups are made up of bettors that don't give a flying f*ck about your fat charts and horrible opionions.

This is a DT Hall of Fame post.

[Gander]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

She's never been beyond 1 1/8th... I doubt they try the 1 1/4th distance against the best turf/syn horses in the world. Let alone the open company issue.

Its not the distance, its the people who own her. They arent sporting at all. They want to do the same boring thing over and over. Its no wonder this horse hasnt earned 10% of the respect and attention Rachel has. Its too bad shes owned by such tight asses. Shes got real talent but to not take a chance and do something different is ludicrous.

I'd vote for Gio Ponti for HOY before Zenyatta.

[TropicalStorm]

Originally Posted by Gander

Its not the distance, its the people who own her. They arent sporting at all. They want to do the same boring thing over and over. Its no wonder this horse hasnt earned 10% of the respect and attention Rachel has. Its too bad shes owned by such tight asses. Shes got real talent but to not take a chance and do something different is ludicrous.

I'd vote for Gio Ponti for HOY before Zenyatta.

That is a very unfair statement. They brought her back this year and did not have to bring her back. She took on a very good crop last year also.
If she goes in the Breeders Cup Classic that will be more than anything Jess Jackson did with Rachel Alexandra.

I suspect they will run her in the Classic and I doubt the owner will get an apology from you either for calling them tight asses. Tight asses don't bring back 4 year old champion horses for another season.

The owner also has won graded stakes on dirt and synthetic with her. Can Jess Jackson say the same thing about his 3yr old filly?

I find it hard to criticize an owner that runs a horse in the fall when the owner who has the likely horse of the year skipped the entire fall racing season.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

That is a very unfair statement. They brought her back this year and did not have to bring her back. She took on a very good crop last year also.
If she goes in the Breeders Cup Classic that will be more than anything Jess Jackson did with Rachel Alexandra.

I suspect they will run her in the Classic and I doubt the owner will get an apology from you either for calling them tight asses. Tight asses don't bring back 4 year old champion horses for another season.

The owner also has won graded stakes on dirt and synthetic with her. Can Jess Jackson say the same thing about his 3yr old filly?

I find it hard to criticize an owner that runs a horse in the fall when the owner who has the likely horse of the year skipped the entire fall racing season.

rachel, who you mention is skipping the entire fall racing season(and i don't think that's etched in stone either), has run twice as much as zenyatta will this year. i also would disagree that zenyatta is a lock to run in the classic, and since the field she would face if she shows is as yet unknown, i'm not quite sure how you could possibly know it's better than the 3 grade ones that rachel ran in and won vs males, one of those three being a 3 yo filly vs open company. racing vs open co is something that zenyatta has yet to attempt in three years of racing. it's true they didn't have to bring her back, but that alone isn't necessarily deserving of great praise. they lost out on one possible foal in doing so. it's not as tho it cost them stud fees x 150.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

That is a very unfair statement. They brought her back this year and did not have to bring her back. She took on a very good crop last year also.
If she goes in the Breeders Cup Classic that will be more than anything Jess Jackson did with Rachel Alexandra.

I suspect they will run her in the Classic and I doubt the owner will get an apology from you either for calling them tight asses. Tight asses don't bring back 4 year old champion horses for another season.

The owner also has won graded stakes on dirt and synthetic with her. Can Jess Jackson say the same thing about his 3yr old filly?

I find it hard to criticize an owner that runs a horse in the fall when the owner who has the likely horse of the year skipped the entire fall racing season.

What part of California do you live in?

NT

[dean smith]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

This is a DT Hall of Fame post.

I hate to disagree with you, Coach Pants. After all, you are the most electrifying poster in all of message boarding.

But I think John "The Fat Man" Campos deserves more respect. He did train Kentucky Derby winner Pleasant Colony.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

That is a very unfair statement. They brought her back this year and did not have to bring her back. She took on a very good crop last year also.
If she goes in the Breeders Cup Classic that will be more than anything Jess Jackson did with Rachel Alexandra.

I suspect they will run her in the Classic and I doubt the owner will get an apology from you either for calling them tight asses. Tight asses don't bring back 4 year old champion horses for another season.

The owner also has won graded stakes on dirt and synthetic with her. Can Jess Jackson say the same thing about his 3yr old filly?

I find it hard to criticize an owner that runs a horse in the fall when the owner who has the likely horse of the year skipped the entire fall racing season.

She's won 1 graded stakes on dirt!! Beating a Ginger Punch who didn't fire her best race (I mean c'mon....Brownie Points was 2nd???)

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by CrossfireHurricane

That is a very unfair statement. They brought her back this year and did not have to bring her back. She took on a very good crop last year also.
If she goes in the Breeders Cup Classic that will be more than anything Jess Jackson did with Rachel Alexandra.

I suspect they will run her in the Classic and I doubt the owner will get an apology from you either for calling them tight asses. Tight asses don't bring back 4 year old champion horses for another season.

The owner also has won graded stakes on dirt and synthetic with her. Can Jess Jackson say the same thing about his 3yr old filly?

I find it hard to criticize an owner that runs a horse in the fall when the owner who has the likely horse of the year skipped the entire fall racing season.

You mean like running Rachel Alexandra back on two weeks rest to face BOYS in the Preakness... or sending her into the gate two additional times against males??

Zenyatta's run a whole 4 times this year to RA's 8?

End this discussion, because it's over.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by Gander

You forgot Rachel also won the Haskell over males, probably beating a better horse in Summer Bird than anything she beat in the Wood or Preakness.
Z beat Einstein? LOL. She barely gets up to beat those slowpoke fillies and mares out west. Its always the same boring lineup- Life is Sweet, Briecat, AllIcansayiswow. Big deal. How on earth could she even come close to passing Einstein (I know you agree with me, just putting this out there).

If Z wins the BCC she too will likely have then beaten Summer Bird as he is expected to start. If Z wins the BCC she will have beaten the two serious US 3yo's in SB and MTB AND beaten the Euro star Sea The Stars AND all the synthetic specialists. To me that is a greater accomplishment.
I'm not confident that Z will even run in the Classic and I'm less confident that if she does, she'll win. However if she does go and does win, she's the HOY in my view.

[slotdirt]

She won't be able to beat Pioneerof the Nile this year, which will really be a negative for her credentials.

[Danzig]

i'm not confident that zenyatta or sea the stars will be there. i'd imagine if sea wins the arc he'll be done; that the only way he ships for the classic is if he loses there and they want to try for redemption-altho with that colts accomplishments this year, i don't see why he'd need redeeming...

the mosses and shirreffs have said all along they don't want her to face colts-why they would change their opinion suddenly i don't know. they don't have to please anyone but themselves, and will do what they think is best for their undefeated mare. having her remain so may be their primary goal, and facing distaffers would arguably give her a much better shot at achieving that.