DRF has a poll -- Bernardini is still most popular

[Calzone Lord]

http://www.drf.com/news/havre-de-gra...e-decided-poll

Bernardini leads the fan poll on who Havre De Grace (Saint Liam-Carson City) should be bred to.

It's been a rough year for Bernardini offspring.

They have a combined record of 578-81-77-72 (just 14% winners and unbelievably brutal $1.03 ROI)

Bernardini offspring are 58-5-6-4 with a $1.01 ROI on debut.

Only one 2yo first-time starter sired by Bernardini has won this year ... that one was Dewey Square, who won his debut at Hoosier Park.

Of the four older debut winners, one was at River Downs, one was at Tampa, one was sprinting down-the-hill at Santa Anita, and the final was Zenyatta's half sister with the French sounding name.

Bernardini offspring produced a terrible ROI of just $1.40 last year ... his 3 millionaires have been Stay Thirsty, To Honor And Serve, and Alpha.

He's got a Rachel Alexandra foal and a Zenyatta foal on the way, but he hasn't been living up to the 150K stud fee and the popularity he has with breeders and fans alike.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

http://www.drf.com/news/havre-de-gra...e-decided-poll

Bernardini leads the fan poll on who Havre De Grace (Saint Liam-Carson City) should be bred to.

It's been a rough year for Bernardini offspring.

They have a combined record of 578-81-77-72 (just 14% winners and unbelievably brutal $1.03 ROI)

Bernardini offspring are 58-5-6-4 with a $1.01 ROI on debut.

Only one 2yo first-time starter sired by Bernardini has won this year ... that one was Dewey Square, who won his debut at Hoosier Park.

Of the four older debut winners, one was at River Downs, one was at Tampa, one was sprinting down-the-hill at Santa Anita, and the final was Zenyatta's half sister with the French sounding name.

Bernardini offspring produced a terrible ROI of just $1.40 last year ... his 3 millionaires have been Stay Thirsty, To Honor And Serve, and Alpha.

He's got a Rachel Alexandra foal and a Zenyatta foal on the way, but he hasn't been living up to the 150K stud fee and the popularity he has with breeders and fans alike.

He's as overrated a sire as he was a runner.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

He's as overrated a sire as he was a runner.

This is not just wrong, it's ridiculous. He was an exceptional racehorse, and it is a shame he never really got to show that on the racetrack. In fact, had he not been such a fine horse, he wouldn't have had the mystique that led to the interesting stats Doug pointed out.

Can you direct me to your posts knocking Invasor when people claim he was a great runner....because if not, your post becomes even more foolish, as Bernardini and Invasor were, at the very least, of similar talents, and that was with Bernardini being younger and less experienced.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

This is not just wrong, it's ridiculous. He was an exceptional racehorse, and it is a shame he never really got to show that on the racetrack. In fact, had he not been such a fine horse, he wouldn't have had the mystique that led to the interesting stats Doug pointed out.

Can you direct me to your posts knocking Invasor when people claim he was a great runner....because if not, your post becomes even more foolish, as Bernardini and Invasor were, at the very least, of similar talents, and that was with Bernardini being younger and less experienced.

What is ridiculous is saying Bernardini would have beaten Barbaro in the Preakness, had things not gone the way they went for Barbaro.

I do agree Bernardini was an exceptional racehorse, but the amount of hype surrounding him was out of control. You knocking me for saying he was overrated is no different than someone knocking you for saying the exceptional Zenyatta was overrated (except for degree).

They were both great horses, but really, there was this over the top belief about Bernardini that was not warranted.

And are you kidding about Invasor? I have stated plenty of times that he wasn't that much as well. A fine and solid horse, definitely, but a top notch great horse? No way.

I think just about everyone knows Bernardini was the more gifted and capable runner. While his trip in the BCC was not optimal, it was far from the travesty that DrugS made it out to be, and you know that as well.

That he lost to a solid horse in Invasor while not getting the most perfect trip for the only time in his career (post debut) should tell you something.

I guess you think I am saying he sucked as a racehorse? While I didn't spell it out in the post above, my main things about him were:

1. He was not the most stout hearted racehorse (much like his progeny).
2. He was not even the best horse in his crop (Barbaro was). Of course, there's not a way in the world to prove either one was better, but just as you stated about Bernardini being a 3yo and not being given the chance to prove his stuff, the exact same thing can be said about Barbaro.

How many Dynaformers are better at two and three then at four? Not very many at all. I confidently believe that both these horses had quite a bit of upside left to them as they got older and matured, but up through each horses respective first five or so starts, Bernardini was much much much more professional a runner.

It is a great shame neither of them really got a chance to face one another.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Barbaro, Barbaro, Barbaro -- babble, babble, babble, --
blah, blah, blah --- Barbaro, Barbaro, Barbaro

Barbaro has nothing to do with whether Bernardini was overrated or not.

We know you love horses who run one or two breakout races and have their racing careers permanently end to injury before they accomplish a whole lot.

I know you loved Barbaro before he ever raced on dirt, I told you to watch him after he won his 2nd career start and you had a bigger woody for him than even I did, as a turf horse, at that time.

I know you liked him in the Kentucky Derby...and I did not.

What any of that has to do with Bernardini isn't apparent to me.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Barbaro has nothing to do with whether Bernardini was overrated or not.

We know you love horses who run one or two breakout races and have their racing careers permanently end to injury before they accomplish a whole lot.

I know you loved Barbaro before he ever raced on dirt, I told you to watch him after he won his 2nd career start and you had a bigger woody for him than even I did, as a turf horse, at that time.

I know you liked him in the Kentucky Derby...and I did not.

What any of that has to do with Bernardini isn't apparent to me.

You give me a headache sometimes, but ok, I will briefly allow you to bait me into answering you.

First off, all three of his turf races were breakout races. His first two dirt races, while considerably unimpressive to you, were very impressive to me for the exact reasons you thought he sucked on dirt. How many times and in how many ways can this be explained to you? As I thought would happen, he finally, for the first time in his entire career, put everything together in the Derby.

While I do have a penchant for picking out horses that are destined to have five race or less careers, Barbaro was not the type who fit that mold. He was sound and suffered a freak injury leaving the gate, FFS.

What does any of this have to do with Bernardini? Quite a bit, or nothing at all. I suppose it depends on how much you limit your perspective.

My thoughts are that had he not broken down, Bernardini would have had to chase Barbaro in the Preakness, thus not getting his usual 100% perfect dream trip. Yeah, I know, he didn't need the lead, but chasing Barbaro would have been a whole different ball game then chasing what turned out to be a brutally bad field.

I seriously doubt he'd have won the race and the legend that he was becoming that year would have been derailed right there. He'd have been exposed well before the BCC and apologists like you would have had no excuses to blame his loss on.

He wouldn't have been the 3yo champion, and had he faced Barbaro in one of those awful g1s he won that summer, he'd have not gone off to stud with all the fanfare due a superhorse.

Hell, I bet he would have raced at four.

[Calzone Lord]

Meanwhile, among the most surprising of this years obscure first-crop sires is the relative pile of crap racehorse Frost Giant (who raced for Dutrow Jr.)

He's only had 14 starters -- but they've combined to win 16 of 46 races for a dazzling 35% win percentage.

After their debut, they're 13-for-32 (41% wins) and they've stretched out fine so far, winning 4 of 9 route attempts.

He's based in New York ... two of his 14 horses to race so far have already earned over 175K.

I still think he's quite overpriced at his $7,500 stud fee. He is Frost Giant, afterall... AKA the horse who single handedly ruined the Grade 1 status of the most historic New York stakes race, the Suburban Handicap...probably forever.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Meanwhile, among the most surprising of this years obscure first-crop sires is the relative pile of crap racehorse Frost Giant (who raced for Dutrow Jr.)

He's only had 14 starters -- but they've combined to win 16 of 46 races for a dazzling 35% win percentage.

After their debut, they're 13-for-32 (41% wins) and they've stretched out fine so far, winning 4 of 9 route attempts.

He's based in New York ... two of his 14 horses to race so far have already earned over 175K.

I still think he's quite overpriced at his $7,500 stud fee. He is Frost Giant, afterall... AKA the horse who single handedly ruined the Grade 1 status of the most historic New York stakes race, the Suburban Handicap...probably forever.

Has one in the 3rd at Aqueduct tomorrow.