I believe the only three

[The Indomitable DrugS]

females to run in the Breeders Cup Classic are Zenyatta and these two....




Obviously Azeri was past her prime some - and had no shot in hell in that great field with Ghostzapper and Pleasantly Perfect. Still ran 5th with a 109 Beyer.

3-year-old filly Jolypha, still elidgible for a non-winners of 3 alw race and making her first lifetime start on dirt, might have been 200/1 on the board if she wasn't coupled in the betting with a pair of solid Bobby Frankel trained older Grade 1 wining males. She gave a great account of herself by running 3rd beaten only 2.5 lengths with a 110 Beyer to the halfway decent horse A. P. Indy.

You can joke about the laughing stock field Zenyatta beat all you want, but she stepped up, ran her race, and was a deserving winner.

And as for the last three females to run in the Triple Crown Series....

* Rachel Alexandra won the Preakness and paid $5.60

* Eight Belles 2nd in the Kentucky Derby at 13/1 odds

* Rags To Riches won the Belmont Stakes and paid $12.60


It really makes you think back to the BC Distaff in '95 .. when Inside Information obliterated the deepest field in the history of the race.

After her race and Cigar's race in the Classic that day ... anyone with the slightest understanding of sound handicapping had to know that II would have certainly won the Classic that day had she been in it.

Yet, her gender... counter to every sound analytical handicapping factor ... was the reason she wouldn't have won had she run in the Classic.

As racing fans .. we've been subjected to a historically embarassing collection of top males the last few years .. but it really has been great to see top females given the chance more often .. and cashing in on the weakness of the males.

[Travis Stone]

That Inside Information win was amazing, an absolute blow-out. Probably right up there with Arazi in terms of most dominating BC wins of all time.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

That Inside Information win was amazing, an absolute blow-out. Probably right up there with Arazi in terms of most dominating BC wins of all time.

Yeah - and the field of horses behind II that day was an absolute super group as well.

Obviously they didn't run to their best and II ran out of this world.

[Sightseek]

Taking nothing at all from Zenyatta because that was a fantastic race, but it drives me nuts to read some articles declaring this year's Classic field as the "deepest" or "toughest" field.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Taking nothing at all from Zenyatta because that was a fantastic race, but it drives me nuts to read some articles declaring this year's Classic field as the "deepest" or "toughest" field.

No way!!!

Link?


This years Classic field was about the worst ever.

Rip Van Winkle was 3/1 in the betting .. and he's only running a couple lengths faster than 2yo's in Europe going his best distance.

Summer Bird was 3rd choice in the betting .. he never ran on a synthetic track before and had less than ideal turf breeding.

Twice Over was 4th choice in the betting. He ran 3rd even though I thought he was struggling with the turns somewhat and didn't seem comfortable.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

No way!!!

Link?


This years Classic field was about the worst ever.

Rip Van Winkle was 3/1 in the betting .. and he's only running a couple lengths faster than 2yo's in Europe going his best distance.

Summer Bird was 3rd choice in the betting .. he never ran on a synthetic track before and had less than ideal turf breeding.

Twice Over was 4th choice in the betting. He ran 3rd even though I thought he was struggling with the turns somewhat and didn't seem comfortable.

I don't have time to find them all, but a quote from your hero John Sherriffs:

"That was the biggest moment for me," he said. "The streak was on the line, the fans were there to see her run. A chance for Horse of the Year was on the line. She was running against one of the best Breeders' Cup Classic fields ever assembled. As they say in poker, we were all in."

Blood-horse says this ever year, but I think they suffer from early alzheimer's for the most part.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I don't have time to find them all, but a quote from your hero John Sherriffs:

"That was the biggest moment for me," he said. "The streak was on the line, the fans were there to see her run. A chance for Horse of the Year was on the line. She was running against one of the best Breeders' Cup Classic fields ever assembled. As they say in poker, we were all in."

Blood-horse says this ever year, but I think they suffer from early alzheimer's for the most part.

to support your argument I would not used biased comments from the connections.

[10 pnt move up]

The females to males thing, I think this will go on for a while, the best males hardly make it to 4 in todays game....ie see Zensational, most have done enough after 8 races.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

to support your argument I would not used biased comments from the connections.

I didn't realize I was presenting in front of a court of law. It's all over the place..

The big decision leading up to the 2009 Breeders’ Cup was whether Zenyatta would take the easier route in the Ladies Classic, a race she won last year, in her quest for perfection or tackle one of the deepest Classic fields ever assembled.


http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...z-one-and-only

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

No way!!!

Link?


This years Classic field was about the worst ever.

Rip Van Winkle was 3/1 in the betting .. and he's only running a couple lengths faster than 2yo's in Europe going his best distance.

Summer Bird was 3rd choice in the betting .. he never ran on a synthetic track before and had less than ideal turf breeding.

Twice Over was 4th choice in the betting. He ran 3rd even though I thought he was struggling with the turns somewhat and didn't seem comfortable.

Its easy to say after the fact that this field was "weak", but as late as last week, people were making arguments that Rip "would have eclipsed Sea the Stars" and no one know what to expect from Quality Road, Summer Bird or Gio Ponti, etc., on the Pro Ride, so yeah now that they "didn't fire" its easy to say the field was terrible. I don't think you can defend last year's field or even the 2005 field as any better than than this one...

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by smuthg

Its easy to say after the fact that this field was "weak",

I probably said VERY weak before the fact ... and if I didn't ... I assumed it was so obvious that everyone would know.

Calling it weak by past Breeders Cup Classic standards...would be very, very, very kind.

Originally Posted by smuthg

but as late as last week, people were making arguments that Rip "would have eclipsed Sea the Stars"

Rip Van Winkle ran 3/5ths of a second faster than 2yo's in his last race .. and that was at his best distance.

Originally Posted by smuthg

and no one know what to expect from Quality Road, Summer Bird or Gio Ponti, etc., on the Pro Ride,

Gio Ponti ran twice on Santa Anita's Pro Ride before. He finished 5th behind Cowboy Cal in his most recent try over it in the Strub Stakes.

Quality Road and Summer Bird would have been DOMINANT favorites if the race was run on dirt. It wasn't ... that's why they weren't being bet.

I don't think you can defend last year's field or even the 2005 field as any better than than this one...

Those two were also weak.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Rip Van Winkle ran 3/5ths of a second faster than 2yo's in his last race .. and that was at his best distance.

That was his 2nd Group I win in a row. His 3rd race back, in July, was a 2nd place finish (by a length) to European Horse-of-the-Millenium, Sea of Stars. I think it's fair to consider Rip Van Winkle a top-notch European, and lately that's been enough to threaten our best. According to multiple observers (and I mean before the race) he shipped terribly and had major problems acclimating to his Santa Anita environs. His connections admitted as much in the days just before the race.

--Dunbar

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Taking nothing at all from Zenyatta because that was a fantastic race, but it drives me nuts to read some articles declaring this year's Classic field as the "deepest" or "toughest" field.

I cant for the life of me figure out how people are calling it that. I mean even the best entrant pre race (Summer Bird) was out of his elemant. I guess Rip Van Winkle made it the best classic ever? LOL Its middle of the pack at best.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Taking nothing at all from Zenyatta because that was a fantastic race, but it drives me nuts to read some articles declaring this year's Classic field as the "deepest" or "toughest" field.

I read the same thing in at least one article. I thought it was absurd. This was in no way a strong field. This was a very weak Handicap division this year. Comparing this year to recent years, there were no Ghostzappers, Roses In Mays, Pleasantly Perfects, Invasors, Curlins, Bernardinis, Invasors, Saint Liams, etc. this year.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

females to run in the Breeders Cup Classic are Zenyatta and these two....




It really makes you think back to the BC Distaff in '95 .. when Inside Information obliterated the deepest field in the history of the race.

After her race and Cigar's race in the Classic that day ... anyone with the slightest understanding of sound handicapping had to know that II would have certainly won the Classic that day had she been in it.

You just can't make a blanket assumption like this because we should know by now some horses run to their competition, this was the danger of underestimating Zenyatta prior to the Classic because she ran 90ish beyers in preps. All we know is she runs by Lethal Heat, Life is Sweet the same way she runs by Gio Ponti. We just don't know what Cigar would have done had he run against II earlier in the day or how II would have run at a distance a furlong further on a different type of track.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by CSC

You just can't make a blanket assumption like this because we should know by now some horses run to their competition, this was the danger of underestimating Zenyatta prior to the Classic because she ran 90ish beyers in preps. All we know is she runs by Lethal Heat, Life is Sweet the same way she runs by Gio Ponti. We just don't know what Cigar would have done had he run against II earlier in the day or how II would have run at a distance a furlong further on a different type of track.

says the guys who says zenyatta would beat rachel IF rachel ran in such and such race.

blanket assumption at its best

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

says the guys who says zenyatta would beat rachel IF rachel ran in such and such race.

blanket assumption at its best

Works both ways doesn't it? RA could have run in the Classic if they chose to. Yes, no?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

You just can't make a blanket assumption like this because we should know by now some horses run to their competition, this was the danger of underestimating Zenyatta prior to the Classic.

Horses don't run to their competiton.

If you put Zenyatta in with claimers ... she would bury them by a wide margin.

Both her and Life Is Sweet were against unfavorable paces in their preps - they both got more distance to work with, more pace to set them up, and their trainer had them both peaking at the right time.

Running to competition is sillyness. You don't have to bet very long to figure that out.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Horses don't run to their competiton.

If you put Zenyatta in with claimers ... she would bury them by a wide margin.

Both her and Life Is Sweet were against unfavorable paces in their preps - they both got more distance to work with, more pace to set them up, and their trainer had them both peaking at the right time.

Running to competition is sillyness. You don't have to bet very long to figure that out.

While it is obvious that Zenyatta would bury a bunch of claimers this is an extreme case mind you, jockies ride differently to different races and competition, it's just impossible to know or say II would have beaten Cigar at a different distance and a different time of the day when the track was drying out because conditions and race dynamics were not identical. It has been said Zenyatta does as much as she needs to win, I would surmise Cigar was also this way, to illustrate this I remember Kent D saying once after a race Cigar beat him in about Bailey on Cigar, he could only wonder if Bailey would finally let Cigar go how fast could he really run, but Bailey's thinking was he was looking at the big picture down the road and he only asked what was required of Cigar to win. Hogwash or sincerity it's up to everyone to decide. But I think Cigar was one of those horses who only did what was required of him to win in 95. Looking at Zenyatta after last weekend, one can see a similarity in the 2 styles where beyerwise they may have looked suspect on the surface.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

While it is obvious that Zenyatta would bury a bunch of claimers this is an extreme case mind you, jockies ride differently to different races and competition, it's just impossible to know or say II would have beaten Cigar at a different distance and a different time of the day when the track was drying out because conditions and race dynamics were not identical. It has been said Zenyatta does as much as she needs to win, I would surmise Cigar was also this way, to illustrate this I remember Kent D saying once after a race Cigar beat him in about Bailey on Cigar, he could only wonder if Bailey would finally let Cigar go how fast could he really run, but Bailey's thinking was he was looking at the big picture down the road and he only asked what was required of Cigar to win. Hogwash or sincerity it's up to everyone to decide. But I think Cigar was one of those horses who only did what was required of him to win in 95. Looking at Zenyatta after last weekend, one can see a similarity in the 2 styles where beyerwise they may have looked suspect on the surface.

Cigar dominated and blew out fields ... Bailey was whipping and driving him in the Classic when he won as well. Cigar was also a very fast speed figure horse... and a very consistant speed figure horse. His competition certainly wasn't much though .. and some real epic female horses were around during his run of dominance.

Don't listen to jockeys ... they are just as brutal as trainers... if not more.

It may not show in win percentages, but Cannon Shell is like the Albert Einstein of horse trainers... and I try my hardest not to listen to him most of the time.